Question for the Non-Christians
 

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

Apparently you don't want Christians to be able to see the results of this poll.

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

Ok, people who say no. What would be your response/explanation for someone rising from the dead and ascending to heaven?

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

So far, it's 3 yes, 1 no.

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

Sorry. I guess I should have made the results available. My fault.

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

More information needed. I'm not even sure what the resurrection is supposed to be, the accounts in the bible are conflicting and frankly, don't make sense as a historical record.

Another point is that I'll never believe in original sin, the flood, etc, and the whole point of Jesus' death and resurrection was original sin. So the whole thing is just weird, and it wouldn't convince me of anything.

What would convince me is if:

-God suddenly appeared and spoke to whole world simultaneously, or even a few thousand people.
-The flood waters in New Orleans were miraculously removed biblical style.
- All Christians are suddenly miraculously healed of illness
- A faith healer could heal visible external injuries instantly
- So many other things....

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

I answered yes of course. If I were convinced that Jesus rose from the dead, I would return to Christianity and its not even close. It would have to be pretty strong evidence, because as of right now I am not even convinced Jesus even existed.

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

Here's a question: do YOU think one should? (rationally, of course)

I voted no. There's a huge gap in logic in the statement, "the resurrection happened IMPLIES the christian bible is the word of God." I see a lot of disagreements about what exactly makes a christian, so I've chosen "belief in the bible as the word of God" as my benchmark. I don't think you'll have any problems with this.

Clearly, proof of the resurrection would cause me to consider more carefully other sorts of apparently supernatural claims. It would in no way prove, or even really support at all, the entirety of christian mythology. It would simply mean that the bible has a story that is at least partially accurate. I'm sure we all know the whole "broken clock, twice a day, etc....." spiel.....

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

I guess I probably would answer no to this, though let me specify. This basically explains the line to me of "believe in God" vs. "become a Christian." If it was proven that Jesus was resurrected from the dead, this would certainly make me lean towards believing a God existed.

However, to "become a Christian" in my opinion means to become a follower of this God. As I’ve mentioned before I do not assume that if there is a God, he is worthy of following. What would make me a follower of this God would be evidence that through the crucifixion humans were "saved" or helped in some way. Because sacrifice is severely counterintuitive, I cannot support someone who uses sacrifice without being proven that it does work, and showed how it worked. Furthermore, some day the resurrection account could be proven completely false, yet that there is a God proven true. If through sacrifice this God did in fact save humans, I would follow that God as well.

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

I voted yes: If I was 100% sure that Jesus rose from the dead and then ascended into heaven 40 days later, I would have to believe in a Judeo-Christian god.

I probably would have trouble finding a christian relgion that felt right to me, but I would still be christian.

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you became convinced the resurrection actually took place, would you become a Christian?


[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly not:

Knowing that someone recovered for a short while from what was considered death a couple of millennia ago would convince me of nothing more than the fact itself.

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you became convinced the resurrection actually took place, would you become a Christian?


[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly not:

Knowing that someone recovered for a short while from what was considered death a couple of millennia ago would convince me of nothing more than the fact itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a different question you answered. I definitely wouldn't become a Christian under any circumstances.

Mack

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

Here is what was considered death a couple of millennia ago.

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you became convinced the resurrection actually took place, would you become a Christian?


[/ QUOTE ]
Clearly not:
Knowing that someone recovered for a short while from what was considered death a couple of millennia ago would convince me of nothing more than the fact itself.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thats a different question you answered. I definitely wouldn't become a Christian under any circumstances.
Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to admit to not really understanding the original question. I do not believe it would be possible to prove (whatever that means) the details of anything that happened 2000 years ago, so the question is purely academic.

However:

If you create a model where the resurrection (whatever that means), is taken as a basic assumption then I do not believe you can conclude much more than the resurrection itself. Which is the point I was trying to make.

Christianity has a lot more to it than the history of Jesus Christ, like God, Holy sprit, life after death, Genesis, angels the devil etc. For a model to encompass the whole of Christianity you should expect to make further assumptions than those specific to the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Hence unless you are very tricky about defining what “the resurrection” means, you cannot deduce Christianity logically from the resurrection.

Still when has logic ever stopped anyone believing what the want to believe.

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

"Christianity has a lot more to it than the history of Jesus Christ, like God, Holy sprit, life after death, Genesis, angels the devil etc. For a model to encompass the whole of Christianity you should expect to make further assumptions than those specific to the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Christianity relies on the belief that Jesus rose from the dead. If the resurrection is untrue, Christianity falls apart. There is no Christianity without the resurrection.

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Christianity has a lot more to it than the history of Jesus Christ, like God, Holy sprit, life after death, Genesis, angels the devil etc. For a model to encompass the whole of Christianity you should expect to make further assumptions than those specific to the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Christianity relies on the belief that Jesus rose from the dead. If the resurrection is untrue, Christianity falls apart. There is no Christianity without the resurrection.

[/ QUOTE ]

But there could be resurrection without christianity.

chez

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

Even assuming the Christian god exists and resurrected Jesus Christ, I wouldn't become Christian. Just because a powerful being exists doesn't mean I should worship it.

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

I answered yes but wish to clarify. I would have to be convinced that the following two events happened:

1. Jesus (fully) died and was dead for a number of days, or at the very least several hours, in other words well after medical recovery would be possible.
2. Jesus then via God or whatever the story is rose from the dead state mentioned in step 1.

As it is I have a huge number of problems with the religion in general. I think a person being fully dead and authentically (not through some sort of weekend and bernies type thing [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] rising from the dead would indicate something beyond normal is going on and that Christianity or something in its superset is most likely correct.

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

If I became convinced that resurrection took place I would instantly check myself into a mental institution.

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

ok this is obviously hypothetical.

imagine your friends with dr. emmit brown and instead of taking the Delorean back to 1955 instead you cruise to 33 AD and watch Jesus die and then rise, etc etc etc. (there was a back to the future marathon on today [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])

That is what the OP meant, imo. And, if that was the case, then of course I would become a Christian. However, if I was to go back there as an observer I know I'd just see some normal dude get his [censored] ass kicked.

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

Since I am a Christian and do not want to skew the results could someone post them here? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

"But there could be resurrection without christianity."

Christianity is the belief that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, died for the sins of mankind, and rose again on the third day. You'll find this belief is universal among those who call themselves Christians.

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

"Since I am a Christian and do not want to skew the results could someone post them here?"

My fault, Spam. I should have made the results available. The results are 19 yes and 17 no. (One of the yes votes is mine--so I could see them.)

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

Thanks, could you update them occasionaly. I am interested in this as well.

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

[ QUOTE ]
"But there could be resurrection without christianity."

Christianity is the belief that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, died for the sins of mankind, and rose again on the third day. You'll find this belief is universal among those who call themselves Christians.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine, so anyone who believes Jesus was resurrected but not the son of god wouldn't be a christian.

That's the camp some of us could be in if we became convinced that Jesus was resurrected.

chez

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

If I ever saw someone do all the things that Jesus supposedly did in the bible in such a way that even the Amazing Randi couldn't show was just a magic trick or some faith healer type show gimmick, then I would instantly fall on my knees and kiss his feet and proclaim him my savior. And if I could miraculously do all these things myself, I would expect any reasonable person, even Sklansky, to instantly discard any previous thoughts they had on the issue of faith and decide to worship me.

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

Subtract my vote, and it's even 20 yes and 20 no.

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

"Fine, so anyone who believes Jesus was resurrected but not the son of god wouldn't be a christian."

Yes, because rising from the dead is such a common thing. Let's assume that Jesus did infact "resurrect". If not God, whom?

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I became convinced that resurrection took place I would instantly check myself into a mental institution.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

[ QUOTE ]
I answered yes of course. If I were convinced that Jesus rose from the dead, I would return to Christianity and its not even close. It would have to be pretty strong evidence, because as of right now I am not even convinced Jesus even existed.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/jesusexisthub.html

For those who answered \"yes\"
 

If Jesus did not rise from the dead, how do you explain the following:

1. Jesus staked his entire ministry on the fact that he would rise from the dead. Why would he risk destroying the entire movement of Christianity on a false prophecy?

2. The tombs of other religious leaders are visited and worshipped by many each year. This is true of Buddha, Confusious, Muhammad, and Joseph Smith. Why is the same not true for Jesus?

3. The disciples hid following the arrest of Jesus for fear of being put to death. After the alleged resurrection, the disciples suddenly began to preach without fear of death. Why?

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Fine, so anyone who believes Jesus was resurrected but not the son of god wouldn't be a christian."

Yes, because rising from the dead is such a common thing. Let's assume that Jesus did infact "resurrect". If not God, whom?

[/ QUOTE ]

A different god or some advanced science beyond my comprehension.

chez

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

"A different god or some advanced science beyond my comprehension."

Why would you go so far out of your way to believe something so unreasonable?

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

[ QUOTE ]
"A different god or some advanced science beyond my comprehension."

Why would you go so far out of your way to believe something so unreasonable?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

Christianity doesnt hinge on just one event. Suppose the resurrection did take place - is that statement assuming everything the bible said about it is true as well?

Ie:
A book lists items A,B,C,D, and E to be true. We find out event B is true. Does it follow that items A,C,D, and E are also true? Not necessarily.

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

"If I ever saw someone do all the things that Jesus supposedly did in the bible in such a way that even the Amazing Randi couldn't show was just a magic trick or some faith healer type show gimmick, then I would instantly fall on my knees and kiss his feet and proclaim him my savior. And if I could miraculously do all these things myself, I would expect any reasonable person, even Sklansky, to instantly discard any previous thoughts they had on the issue of faith and decide to worship me."

And of course I would. Religious people don't want to believe that for reasons already mentioned.

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

So, have the results changed any.

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

"Ie:
A book lists items A,B,C,D, and E to be true. We find out event B is true. Does it follow that items A,C,D, and E are also true? Not necessarily."

True, but as is the case with the resurrection, if item B is false the truth of items A, C, D, and E don't really matter all that much. However, item B is so outrageous that if it is in fact true the likelihood of the other items being true increases greatly.

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

Even. 21 to 21.

Re: Question for the Non-Christians
 

I believe it.