Hand To Talk About
 

Hi Everyone:

Here's an interesting hand I played Friday night in the $30-$60 game at The Bellagio.

I was in the big blind with 5[img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]4[img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]. Two players limped in, and then a late position player who had been playing somewhat conservatively raised. I called and the limpers called.

The flop was Q[img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] giving me an open end straight draw. I bet, the two limpers folded, the preflop raiser raised, and I called.

The turn was the 4[img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]. I checked, my opponent bet, I raised, and he called.

The river was the K[img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]. I bet and my opponent folded.

All comments welcome.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

Call me a snaredrum but I don't think I'de even see the flop with this hand. Pissy position, conservative raiser, not closing the betting, and an OK at best hand would lead me to muck here preflop. But that's just me.

PokerPrince

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

Ni bluff sur.

I think you opponent wimped out. Did he have A [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] ? Did he have a pocket pair?

You should have been raised on the river. You would have folded, wouldn't you?

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

Mason, it's so tough for me to read your posts. Everything I've been working on and building is now coming crashing down around me. Calling a preflop raise in the BB with 54s??? I'd muck with no second thoughts. Can you explain your call?

I think you'd have a tough time convincing me that this play is +EV.

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

Tyler,

If you have been following along for any length of time, Mason and David advocate defending the blinds (especially the big blind) with a lot of hands.

at last!
 

really well played from start to finish! aggressive, tricky, and tough, and out of position to boot! eat em alive mason!!

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

Mason:
Preflop, if you can be fairly sure that the limpers will call the raise (and that seems very likely), you are getting 7-to-1 to put in your extra small bet. This seems like a reasonable gamble given that no one else is likely to hold either two diamonds or a 5 or a 4. I'm not so sure that I'd want to make this play as a routine matter, however. You might have to show a couple of this kind of hands down, and if it was a routine thing, you couldn't succeed with any frequency.

When the limpers fold your flop bet, you must have been a bit relieved. They represent your chief competition given the texture of the flop, assuming that your conservative pre-flop raiser doesn't hold a Queen or a high pocket pair or a spade draw. When the pre-flop raiser raises your flop bet it's possible he holds one of those three hands, but given the money in the pot you are getting 11-to-1 to try for your open-ended straight draw, which would beat most of his hands (unless he has a flush draw and also hits).

The spade 4 on the turn is a good news, bad news card. If he doesn't hold a spade flush at this point, the 4 can't have helped him, and it gives you quite a number of outs if what he holds at this point is a high pair or less. I like the check-raise. If you lead bet the turn and he raised, you wouldn't be able to put him on a flush, since he could be raising with a high pair and a singleton (high) spade. The check-raise represents something like a spade flush, or just possibly a set or two pairs, and you get a denial of a flush by way of his calling your check-raise.

The diamond K on the river is a scary card. If the Queen didn't pair him, it would seem that the King probably must. If on the other hand the King didn't pair him, then unless he holds AA, the K is a threat card to him. I can see how it would be worth one more bet to see if he's scared, and I'd defer to your judgment whether he'd lay down a pair of Queens for one big bet given your representation of a flush (or maybe lay down a pocket pair lower than Q's on the theory that the board K or Q must have hit you if you don't have the flush).

On the turn and river I'd expect you were prepared to lay down your hand had you encountered resistance. His passive play gives you the option of taking control. But your control is fragile. It's another reason for not playing the 45s as a routine thing in the big blind -- there are too many places where a card could hit him and you wouldn't know until you got raised on the turn or river. Each step gives you reason to take one more, but only against a conservative non-tricky player who can lay down something like non-top pair. This, in my opinion, is the key to the hand -- knowing your opponent. I also think that if at some point you decide to abandon the hand, you'd want to get it into the muck unseen (if called on the river, I'd toss my hand at the same time I was saying "Good call -- I was bluffing all the way!")

Gino

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

Calling a preflop raise in the BB with 54s??? I'd muck with no second thoughts.

You need to start thinking twice.

In a General thread, I was stunned posters wanted to fold 65s pre-flop in the big blind heads-up against a late position steal raise. With two other opponents, folding the similar 54s is a really poor decision.

The vast majority of the time the two limpers are going to call the raise giving you an excellent 7.5:1 on your call. How much of an overlay do you need?

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

I was initially inclined to agree with the "fold with that even for one bet out of position" crowd until I read Dynasty's post. You're right Dynasty (as usual), the cards look bad but the pot odds justify it. I think given this, you played it perfectly, the flush bluff scared him off on the river, you have to figure he had a high spade and was looking for #4 on the board (As Q/J/10?).

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

I think the most debatable play was semi-bluff betting the flop with such a strong draw which pressures the two players between you and the pre-flop raiser to fold thereby eliminating some implied odds.

But this bet also enables you to find another way to win without necessarily having to complete your draw. As your later street play so clearly (and beautifully) shows. IMO-

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

I think this is a lovely hand that was expertly played.

It's this type of hand that, if it had come to a showdown, would have made all but the other pros at your table gasp at your "fishiness".

I also think your opponent would have won a showdown but because of the board, your betting, and the non-suited overcard on the river (all of which intermingle in a perfect relationship) he was just too overwhelmed to do anything other than fold.

I put him on JsJx.

Billy

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

Usually I don't defend my blinds very much. That's something I need to start working on.

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

How much does a consistent, and reasonably tight, aggressive image have to do with winning this hand? Would certain players not be able to pull it off? This is not a criticism, but a question of the importance of image and how a different table image may be a factor in how the hand could be played.

-Zeno

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

Getting almost 8 to 1 (as long as their isn't a limp reraise) suited unblocked connectors are a call here. That being said, I think you are only giving up a little by folding. With one less limper I do think it is a fold (but would call getting 7 to 1 in an unraised small blind in a 20/40 pot.

~ Rick

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

I'm not saying what I would do is correct. I am, and have always been, extremely tight. Perhaps this is a leak in my overall game and I should loosen up a hair under circumstances like this. Some solid points are being made in regards to this being a call and not a fold, and they are duely noted. Holdem' is an incredibly positional game and this situation just seems like the epidomy of horrible position. It would be one thing if I closed the betting with my call, such as 'raise, call, call, I call', but this isn't the case. I think the decision is closer than most think, and if folding isn't correct, I don't think it's catastrophic by any means.

PokerPrince

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

When I'm in the BB and there is a late position raiser after a few limpers, I've always considered that to be closing the action, since 99.9% of the time, the limpers go call, call, call. . . Are limp-reraises that frequent in your games that you factor them in as a possibility in instances like this?

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

Unfortunately yes, limp reraises happen quite often in the games I play in. The games are usually quite loose/aggressive and the players often like to 'build a pot' by pumping it up preflop. Perhaps playing in these wild games has made me the way I am today and I need to try more passive games.

PokerPrince

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

Hi Mason: Many variables here as to who this guy was (meaning more about his style). I strongly suspect AK clubs or maybe AT or AJ of clubs. However, if this was a weak-tight player who was aware of who you are, could he actually lay down a Queen or a hand like TT or 99? Maybe, but that's way more weak than tight.

Could this be one of those times where we tend to think we made a good bet to take a pot when in actuality your pair of 4s would have been good anyhow? This is what I suspect (and you did not say you bluffed out a better hand - some have assumed that).

Oops!
 

Well, obviously it's not AK clubs - reread the post - had forgotten the K on the river.

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

hi mason
the pre-flop call looks o.k., although a case could perhaps be made for folding, but i suppose this particular opponent was not a tight, so that looks good.

on the river, i'm guessing here that there are about 5 hands that this opponent will fold excuding AQ and KQ, i don't think he will fold those. you want the call from AJ and J10 of course. so when he holds a hand that he may fold, it's wrong to bet out into him 1 out of 5 times. i don't know how exact we can get with this figure, and i may be wrong; this is my very best estimation. i guesstimate that when he does in fact hold a hand that he MAY fold, 4 out of 5 times, you want the fold. and so that we can look at this from the very best circumstance, let's say you know for a fact that he hold a hand that he may fold, you're getting pot odds of 8-1 or so. now, this is way too technical for me to continue with. i do not know whether the 8-1 pot odds justify not betting and simply taking the 5-1 that he may hold AJ or J10.

the main problem that stands out in my opinion, is that this opponent may try to bluff raise the river. and mason, i think there is a good chance that he will show down AJ unimproved. i don't like the river bet, but i may be very wrong and i really hesitate to even question it seriously, but here i do. i just think check and call the dang thing. take the 5-1 odds on an 8-1 rather than risking the positive ev by being forced to call a raise. the only way i can go along with betting out on the river, is if you are willing to call the possible raise. it's a mess mason. this is a real mess. i say check call. it's probably wrong. i cannot fathom betting out on the river though. mason, on that board? i can't believe you bet out. he's gotta call, but the one hand that he may have here, the AJ, and that's likely what he had, well you want him to bluff you on the river with it, getting more money in the pot. it is not completely wrong to take the 5-1 chance that he has AJ, and there is a very, very good reason for not folding it out, more money. you want the bluff bet, but i can't imagine what good does it do to solicit a bluff raise. and this mason, when you know for a fact that he holds a hand that he may fold.

now, to turn this into a definate bet out into him on the river, you would have to include some reasonable expectation that he will fold KQ and AQ. if he will, then i go along with betting out on the river. it's just heads up here mason, will he fold AQ or KQ? did you have a reasonable expectation of getting those hands out. very important. i say no possible way.

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

ok, i feel call good...overlay..and mason is outstanding player after flop..

flop..i like bet..10-9 suited corrolary???

turn..check raise indicates strength..?made flush? KQ?
opponent calls..opp have middle pair?...High flush draw??

river...does bet winn against middle pair...nah, would he have called ckraise on turn with middle pair??...maybe 10s,10?..
maybe get call from AJ???..i guess i'd a checked???where is advantage of bet...crying call and/or opp not calling with higher pair than 44??..or maybe something else???gl [img]/forums/images/icons/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

This is an easy (IMO) defend of the BB in this spot. You fold 54o and play 54s...the hand has two ways to win, a flush or str8. This is taken right out of HPFAP.

Jeff

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

Ya gatta alot of reponses,and I didn't read em,,,But great players Can enter pots with poor holdings against this type of player{who must have had J/J ,or 10/10}sometimes you hit your hand[4/5]and win,sometimes overcards come and he mucks.What a country. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] HFPWC!

What do you put him on?
 

A lot of people are suggesting AJ, probably with a spade. There's little chance he is holding that; Mason said he was playing conservatively, so unless the guy has suddenly started tilting, he is not going to raise two preflop limpers with AJ, and it's unlikely he will raise the flop either. I think it's much more likely that he holds an underpair to Q's. JJ, TT, 99 (less likely) make sense, all with a spade. OTOH, if he is playing conservatively, can he really be that excited about the Jack flush with 4 spades on board? Did he really fold AQ?

Mason, what do you put him on? Is this the type of opponent who will fold AsQ on the river, or did he call the turn with a pocket pair and fold when the flush missed? We need more info on this guy.

~Magic_Man

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

Hi Prince:

From HPFAP:

We generally do not recommend that you call raises in the big blind with a hand like 5[img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]4[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]. If this hand was suited then the call would be okay. But for these calls to be profitable, you usually need at least two ways to win. When the above hand is suited you have the two ways — a straight and a flush. But when it is not suited, there are not enough ways to come out on top. If your cards were higher, usually nine-eight or better, then you might be able to win if you flop a draw, miss it, but make a pair after the flop. Thus a call would now be correct since it is much easier to win the pot with something like a pair of nines than a pair of fives. To call with a small unsuited connecting hand you need to be against weak players who will not extract the maximum from you when you flop a draw, but who will frequently pay off if you make something.

Hope that helps.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

Hi again Prince:

Notice that in this hand my having the lead position actually helped me.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

Hi Glen:

I agree. The possibility of a limp reraise is way over rated by many players. It only rarely happens in my games.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

Hi Prince:

I also agree here. If limp-reraise is common, this hand should probably be folded. But based on my experience, it is quite rare.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

Hi Mike:

I never saw his hand so I don't know. Yes, if raised on the river I have to fold.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

Hi Tyler:

Your question is answered in one of my posts above.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

Hi Mike:

I think this is a mis-statement. We certainly don't defend the blinds with as many hands as some other authors propose.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

Hi Tyler:

You may want to carefully read the chapter of playing the fist two cards out of the blinds in HPFAP. I suspect it will change some of your thinking.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

Hi Gino:

You wrote:

Preflop, if you can be fairly sure that the limpers will call the raise

I think you can be 99.999% sure that will happen. It is extremely rare for someone to fold for one bet after putting in one bet.

You wrote:

The check-raise represents something like a spade flush, or just possibly a set or two pairs, and you get a denial of a flush by way of his calling your check-raise

Notice that I have played my hand just like a flush draw. That's also an important point to consider.

You wrote:

I can see how it would be worth one more bet to see if he's scared, and I'd defer to your judgment whether he'd lay down a pair of Queens for one big bet given your representation of a flush (or maybe lay down a pocket pair lower than Q's on the theory that the board K or Q must have hit you if you don't have the flush).

Given the size of the pot, he doesn't have to fold very often for my river bet to be correct. Thus if I've judged my opponent correctly, I should bet every time here.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

Hi Zeno:

I think this is a good question. I have argued for many years that in games like limit hold 'em where the bet can be relatively small when compared to the size of the pot, that a tight aggressive image is ideal. Couple that with proper tight aggressive play, and plays like this become possible.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

Hi Soft:

You could be right. My opponent might have only had ace high (of the appropriate suit). But with the king hitting on the end, that's fairly doubtful.

Also, some weak-tight players, especially if they think you play tight-well, can be quite creative in their laydowns. When you notice one of these, opportunities will sometimes arise.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Hand To Talk About
 

Hi elysium:

I think that this is clearly playable before the flop. But I also agree that it is not a big money winner.

I also think that some players are very capable of folding AQ or AK here. Another possible hand for him is KQ with the king of spades. On the other hand, other more loose players are certainly not capable of those folds.

Your wrote:

the main problem that stands out in my opinion, is that this opponent may try to bluff raise the river.

Notice that I classified this player as fairly conservative. With that being the case, there is almost no chance that he will bluff raise on the river. Of course my judgement could be wrong.

You wrote:

now, to turn this into a definate bet out into him on the river, you would have to include some reasonable expectation that he will fold KQ and AQ. if he will, then i go along with betting out on the river. it's just heads up here mason, will he fold AQ or KQ? did you have a reasonable expectation of getting those hands out. very important. i say no possible way.

If I would have thought "no possible way" then I shouldn't have made the check raise semi-bluff on the turn.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: What do you put him on?
 

Hi Magic:

Let me put it this way. If this was not the type of opponent who could sometimes fold the AQ on the river, then my play of the hand is probably not correct.

Best wishes,
Mason

i never considered that
 

hi mason,
wow, i never considered that he may fold the AQ type hands heads up. this is very important.

Re: i never considered that
 

Hi elysium:

When some players becoms convinced that they are against a flush, they can fold a lot of hands. In fact, if you're certain you're dead, you should fold even if your hand is very good. However, don't convince yourself that you are dead in in situations where you may not be.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: What do you put him on?
 

In that case I am going to put him on AQ with the ace of spades, or AK (much less likely, IMO). A pocket pair doesn't make much sense to me here on the turn. Do you agree? Above you posted that he may also have KQ. Does he really believe you have the flush so sincerely that he would fold when his hand improves?

~Magic Man