Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely LC)
 

Besides me, of course [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

Threads like these end up being pretty damn useless. But I'm really, REALLY bored right now, so before I get back to work I thought I'd post something marginal. (I don't even have access to PT right now, so I can't even start us off with a list of names.)

On the other hand, I'm playing more and more 20/40, so tell me who to fear. (Though I fear just about everybody at that game. Stupid 50/30/2 players. I hate 'em hate 'em hate 'em. Until they call me down with bottom pair several times in a row and turn a losing session into a 5BB/100 session. Then they're my bestest friends.)

To the complainers: As a resident Carpal Tunnel, I get one marginal post every week or two. I'm due.

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

*whine whine LC post go home etc etc*.

How's the 20/40 gris? I'm finally feeling like the 10/20 is my playground, but I'll likely be camped here for awhile since I need the "reliable" income. Is it significantly different?

Surf

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

it's a fuckload more aggressive and significantly tougher (partially because of a combination of that and the doubled stakes)

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

[ QUOTE ]
it's a fuckload more aggressive and significantly tougher (partially because of a combination of that and the doubled stakes)

[/ QUOTE ]

Good to know. Thanks.

Surf

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

[ QUOTE ]
*whine whine LC post go home etc etc*.

How's the 20/40 gris? I'm finally feeling like the 10/20 is my playground, but I'll likely be camped here for awhile since I need the "reliable" income. Is it significantly different?

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

The game is freakin' crazy. Even the fish regularly pwn me postflop. It's as though everyone is bluffing at exactly the theoretical rate they should ala Theory of Poker. It's VERY easy to dump lots of bets fast if you get impatient, but on the other hand retreating into your shell and not bluffing ever doesn't seem like a valid strategy, especially when the games are 3-handed and 4-handed (as they often are).

In other words, I love it. The 10/20 seems like the Paradise 1/2 5-handed games after you've played the 20/40. (I've only put in ~7k hands total or so at the 20/40, so I'm definitely not a veteran. Just giving my initial impressions.)

I still play more 10/20 than 20/40, but . . . well, this month I'm going to aim for an even split.

Ah, one big drawback: tables filling up after you've taken some beats but have finally gotten a bead on your opposition. Sorry, but full ring is toooo damn slow.

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

[ QUOTE ]
*whine whine LC post go home etc etc*.

How's the 20/40 gris? I'm finally feeling like the 10/20 is my playground, but I'll likely be camped here for awhile since I need the "reliable" income. Is it significantly different?

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

i beat the 20/40 for a small earn over something like 15k hands and dropped down due to the mental strain.

Sample 20/40 hand.
 

5-handed or 6-handed. I raise UTG with QJ [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Folded around (thank god) to the BB, who calls.

Flop is A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. He checks, I bet, he calls.

Turn is the K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. He checks, I figure he must have an ISD, a heart draw, or a 2 or a 3, probably an ISD, so I'm hoping he'll fold here. For me to check the turn and then fold the river UI after showing huge weakness just seems . . . weak, and if he has just a 2 or a 3, the K is a scare card -- be unlikely that I don't have a pair at this point given my UTG raise. Besides, I've got outs. (I fold to a turn checkraise, though. Obviously, he very well might have an ace and is just slowplaying it.)

Bastard calls. Nice chip spew, Grisgra.

River is the semi-beautiful T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], giving me the nut straight but putting the third heart on the board. He checks, I decide I have to bet even though he very well could have been on a flush draw. Still, I hope that he'd bet out here instead of going for the sexy.

So I bet, he checkraises, I grimace and call. I'd probably fold any non-paired ace here, by the way, but I've got a freakin' straight.

He shows T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and MHIG. Moron called the turn with no draw and a pair of deuces. And the best hand, of course.

You'd think that in a game like this all you have to do is never bluff, just value-bet, and you'll be fine. While there's some merit to this, it's not as easy as it sounds.

EDIT -- I expect that some people are going to say I should have checked the turn, and folded the river UI. They may be right -- but you don't understand just how many people call the flop with AnyTwo in this game. They don't do it all the time, of course. Not often enough to automatically ensure you a profit. Just often enough to piss you off. Because they only do it to ME when I don't actually have a hand . . .

Re: Sample 20/40 hand.
 

I'd definitely check the turn and call a non-heart river

Re: Sample 20/40 hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd definitely check the turn and call a non-heart river

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that given that turn card I will sometimes get a small pocket, a 2, or a 3 (or an ISD) to fold. (I believe this, in part, because my raise *was* UTG, and players at this limit pay attention to things like that more than at lower limits. This guy didn't, of course.)

In my limited experience in the game a river bet by the SB here would be a value-bet 2/3rds of the time, or some fraction so close to making it even money whether I call or fold that it really doesn't matter. (So I'd probably call for the information.)

Definitely a viable line, and one that I've used many times before, but I really thought that that turn card would scare him into folding something that was beating me.

But checking behind with outs/inducing a river bluff from a broken ISD or flush draw when I hold the nut non-pair isn't so bad either. If I knew he would bluff the river with any two cards if I checked the turn, it's probably even best, though it's close.

Where's King Yao when you need him?

FWIW I didn't have a read on this guy yet, and can't say whether he'd bluff the river with a broken draw. I wonder what the optimal % needs to be for me to take this line . . . because obviously I want to charge him for any draw that he does have. Depends on the % chance I get him to fold the best hand, probably. Still can't believe he called me with a freaking pair of deuces.

Re: Sample 20/40 hand.
 

you have a gut shot to a probable winner, he might bluff check-raise, he might not fold a 2 or 3, he very well might have absolutely nothing and bluff the river but fold to a bet, if he has a 10 outer (65) and will bluff the river it's approximately break-even, and he might not value bet a 2 or 3 suspecting you have QQ and won't fold, whcih will save you a bet vs betting the turn and taking a showdown. seems like a textbook check-through planning to call the river

also about him betting the river, first of all if he's value betting only 2/3 of the time you turn a huge profit. if you duck a checkraise by an A, you gave yourself 4 outs. if you duck a checkraise from 2 unpaired hearts, you saved yourself 2/3 of the pot. people don't need an A or a pair, or even a draw to call that flop. it's amazing but it's true.

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

[ QUOTE ]
it's a fuckload more aggressive and significantly tougher (partially because of a combination of that and the doubled stakes)

[/ QUOTE ]

About a month ago I played a few thousand hands of 20/40 full and didn't think it was "that" different from 15/30 full. This was less than 5k hands though and none of it shorthanded. I felt entirely comfortable.

A quick stint into 30/60 full was totally different though. Maybe i feel this way because I won at 20 and lost at 30.

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

yeah what sthief said, one thing i did notice - its a viable strategy to find super lags and get position on them. the kind of super lags that only seem to hover 15/30 and above, they can be very profitable. downside of course is that the pot average skyrockets because of them and the tables will eventually fill up. mind you these super lags will not play in the full and will typically get up and find another SH game.

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

I'm sure that helps...

Is 15/30 full still a juicy game? I'm thinking about 4 tabling full tables instead of 2 tabling short ones for a change.

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure that helps...

Is 15/30 full still a juicy game? I'm thinking about 4 tabling full tables instead of 2 tabling short ones for a change.

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally if you sit at short full tables they are very juicy.


I regularly find 3-4 10 handed games with vpip > 30 of 15/30 full.

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure that helps...

Is 15/30 full still a juicy game? I'm thinking about 4 tabling full tables instead of 2 tabling short ones for a change.

[/ QUOTE ]

15/30 full is not the game that it was 6 months. Not even close. It's still beatable and a good game but relatively speaking it's much harder than it was.

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure that helps...

Is 15/30 full still a juicy game? I'm thinking about 4 tabling full tables instead of 2 tabling short ones for a change.

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally if you sit at short full tables they are very juicy.


I regularly find 3-4 10 handed games with vpip > 30 of 15/30 full.

[/ QUOTE ]

But these games fill fast usually do they not? Whenever my 15 tables got short it seemed like they would fill up right away again if you just stuck around for 10 minutes or so.

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

[ QUOTE ]
15/30 full is not the game that it was 6 months. Not even close. It's still beatable and a good game but relatively speaking it's much harder than it was.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very surprising, since I still regularly find decent tables. I'm sad that I missed out on the free money [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]



[ QUOTE ]

But these games fill fast usually do they not? Whenever my 15 tables got short it seemed like they would fill up right away again if you just stuck around for 10 minutes or so.


[/ QUOTE ]

They fill up fast but the horrible players stay in so I do too [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
15/30 full is not the game that it was 6 months. Not even close. It's still beatable and a good game but relatively speaking it's much harder than it was.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very surprising, since I still regularly find decent tables. I'm sad that I missed out on the free money [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]



[ QUOTE ]

But these games fill fast usually do they not? Whenever my 15 tables got short it seemed like they would fill up right away again if you just stuck around for 10 minutes or so.


[/ QUOTE ]

They fill up fast but the horrible players stay in so I do too [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear ya.

I moved down to 10/20 for strategic reasons and so far I like it. I knew that I could learn things playing 10/20-6max that I couldn't learn as fast or effectively at 15 or 20 full. I am not sure what is most profitable for me though. I want to be in the 30 game for ego reasons though.

Re: Sample 20/40 hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you duck a checkraise from 2 unpaired hearts, you saved yourself 2/3 of the pot. people don't need an A or a pair, or even a draw to call that flop. it's amazing but it's true.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're slowly starting to convince me, except that I think it's still worth it to try get that 2 or 3 to fold when the two scariest overs are both on the board. And the tenor of the game is such that a bluff with couple of hearts in this situation is more likely to occur through a flop or turn donkbet (most likely, flop). Probably not a turn checkraise with both the A and K out there.

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

I have seem him a lot at 10/20 and I don't know if he ever plays 20/40 (he should), but STOXFRAUD is really good. I am fairly certain he, at one point, had 15 tackles for a loss and was all-county.

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have seem him a lot at 10/20 and I don't know if he ever plays 20/40 (he should), but STOXFRAUD is really good.

[/ QUOTE ]
Pretty sure I saw him at 5/10 last night.

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have seem him a lot at 10/20 and I don't know if he ever plays 20/40 (he should), but STOXFRAUD is really good. I am fairly certain he, at one point, had 15 tackles for a loss and was all-county.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... I, on the other hand, think that this guy is not that good. Better than average for sure, but not that good.

Also saw him steaming like a mad man one night and berating the fishes.

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have seem him a lot at 10/20 and I don't know if he ever plays 20/40 (he should), but STOXFRAUD is really good. I am fairly certain he, at one point, had 15 tackles for a loss and was all-county.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... I, on the other hand, think that this guy is not that good. Better than average for sure, but not that good.

Also saw him steaming like a mad man one night and berating the fishes.

[/ QUOTE ]

The few times I have seen him he appeared to be on hyper-tilt, cursing out 60/5 type players for foolish calls, etc. I don't know about his skill level since I haven't spent enough time at the tables with him.

Surf

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have seem him a lot at 10/20 and I don't know if he ever plays 20/40 (he should), but STOXFRAUD is really good. I am fairly certain he, at one point, had 15 tackles for a loss and was all-county.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... I, on the other hand, think that this guy is not that good. Better than average for sure, but not that good.

Also saw him steaming like a mad man one night and berating the fishes.

[/ QUOTE ]

The few times I have seen him he appeared to be on hyper-tilt, cursing out 60/5 type players for foolish calls, etc. I don't know about his skill level since I haven't spent enough time at the tables with him.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

I have plenty of hands with him and assume he is 2p2 but berating the fish almost soildifies that he in not THAT good. Very good players just never do this.

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have seem him a lot at 10/20 and I don't know if he ever plays 20/40 (he should), but STOXFRAUD is really good. I am fairly certain he, at one point, had 15 tackles for a loss and was all-county.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... I, on the other hand, think that this guy is not that good. Better than average for sure, but not that good.

Also saw him steaming like a mad man one night and berating the fishes.

[/ QUOTE ]

The few times I have seen him he appeared to be on hyper-tilt, cursing out 60/5 type players for foolish calls, etc. I don't know about his skill level since I haven't spent enough time at the tables with him.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

I have plenty of hands with him and assume he is 2p2 but berating the fish almost soildifies that he in not THAT good. Very good players just never do this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, he's 2+2. I have no doubt about that.

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have seem him a lot at 10/20 and I don't know if he ever plays 20/40 (he should), but STOXFRAUD is really good.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that guy plays a lot of 10/20. It's annoying how often I'm in a good game and he comes and sits downs (actually, this is STOXFRAUD2).

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

I hadn't seen him berating anyone. That's disappointing.

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

Sadly, I see alot of decent TAGs at 10/20 who are probably 2+2ers and berate the fish from time to time [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I think Stoxfraud is very good in limited sample.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sadly, I see alot of decent TAGs at 10/20 who are probably 2+2ers and berate the fish from time to time [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I think Stoxfraud is very good in limited sample.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

i am guitly of the occasional "nh" after 64o calls 2.5 and rivers a straight to beat my set of kings. funny part is they usually think i am serious and say "ty".

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

i say nh when I am bored or amazed. nothing wrong with it imo.

I really do like that they called me down, and it really was a nice hand (usually the backdoor nuts [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sadly, I see alot of decent TAGs at 10/20 who are probably 2+2ers and berate the fish from time to time [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I think Stoxfraud is very good in limited sample.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

i am guitly of the occasional "nh" after 64o calls 2.5 and rivers a straight to beat my set of kings. funny part is they usually think i am serious and say "ty".

[/ QUOTE ]

I too am guilty and also seem to see 'ty' way more than one would expect. What I need to stop doing though is writing 'puke' after hands like the above example happen.

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sadly, I see alot of decent TAGs at 10/20 who are probably 2+2ers and berate the fish from time to time [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I think Stoxfraud is very good in limited sample.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

i am guitly of the occasional "nh" after 64o calls 2.5 and rivers a straight to beat my set of kings. funny part is they usually think i am serious and say "ty".

[/ QUOTE ]

I too am guilty and also seem to see 'ty' way more than one would expect. What I need to stop doing though is writing 'puke' after hands like the above example happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, ok.

i write 'nice' after some really bad beat or 'lol'.

both need to stop [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely L
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sadly, I see alot of decent TAGs at 10/20 who are probably 2+2ers and berate the fish from time to time [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I think Stoxfraud is very good in limited sample.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

i am guitly of the occasional "nh" after 64o calls 2.5 and rivers a straight to beat my set of kings. funny part is they usually think i am serious and say "ty".

[/ QUOTE ]

I too am guilty and also seem to see 'ty' way more than one would expect. What I need to stop doing though is writing 'puke' after hands like the above example happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, ok.

i write 'nice' after some really bad beat or 'lol'.

both need to stop [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

The only thing I say is "nh." I sometimes say it after bad beats, hands I was behind the whole time like KK vs QQ, or when I lose to a monster. They never know when I'm bluffing [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Surf

Re: Sample 20/40 hand.
 

I don't think this is a hand where it is important pinpoint any probabilities. There are too many variables. In order to isolate one variable, it means you know exactly what all the other variables should be. In this hand, you would have to figure out many probabilitiies, including:

1. prob he doesn't check-raise with an Ace on the Flop
2. prob he consistently calls with absolutely nothing on the Flop only to call on the Turn.
3. prob he never gives up on any pair and always calls to see a showdown
4. prob he doesn't give up on a inside draw until the River...and even then, does he continue to call if he picked up a small pair?

just too many moving parts IMO to isolate anything useful. Isolating probabilities is a useful tool, but not always applicable.

Here's the way I look at this sample hand:

You played it exactly as I would. I like the bet on the Turn - give him a chance to fold a 2 or 3 (low pair) or 4 or 5 (straight draw). But if you are check-raised, then you can safely dump and give up your 4 outs. Against trickier players, I would check on the Turn, because trickier players are more apt to check-raise semi-bluff on the Turn and/or bluff on the River - but given no read as you said, I'd bet it. With that said, I think it is a small difference between betting and checking (and calling on River).

P.S. What do you need me for anyway? You kicked my ass in HULA!

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely LC)
 

I have about 25k hands of 20/40 short anywhere from 2-6 handed and managed to grind out about 1.8BB/100h, which I was really quite proud of even over the short run because it really is a tough game. You're right that 10/20 seems like playing with puppies and rainbows after some 20/40. The 20 game is simply tougher and trickier, where you have to really think about your opponents actions, hand ranges, read his hand, go up a level, etc. I 3 tabled occasionally but almost always 2 tabled, soemtimes even one tabled. Game selection was so important.

This is from about a month ago so it may be a bit outdated, but Togni4/5 (he's 2p2 i think) always gave me fits. Also BIGNATURALS8 was overaggressive and annoying. There were plenty of 50/30/2, and you're right, you learn to love those guys. The guy who sits down with 10k every time he plays is fun to play against, very passive and very loose. The tables are usually one hyperaggressive guy surrounded by 2 TAGs and 1 random shmoe.

Good luck at the 20, I can't wait to move back there. It certainly made me play better, and really sharpened up my heads up, 3 and 4 handed game.

Re: Who are the scariest shorthanded 20/40 players at Party? (Likely LC)
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're right that 10/20 seems like playing with puppies and rainbows after some 20/40.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great line! Yeah, I feel like I'm constantly having to adjust my game during play . . . you really need to be aware of your table image and how people are perceiving you.