Quitting Your Job Articles
 

Hi Everyone:

I'm actually somewhat concerned about the articles on "Quitting Your Day Job" that Dr. Alan Schoonmaker is writing. I think there are several major points that he's missing, and I find the articles in direct contrast to my view of playing poker very seriously, as well as being way too pessimistic and downright depressing.

I think the way to explain this is to look at my history. From 1982 to 1987 I was working as a mathematician/statistician for the Northrop Corporation. My specialty was probability theory and by most standards I had a terrific job and was doing well in the company. My pay in 1986 was right at $50,000 a year which was a lot for that time frame, and I had been told that very soon the company would be moving me into management. But the next year I quit my job to play poker even though my superiors encouraged me to stay on.

Much of my motivation for leaving was not that I would make more money playing poker. In fact, my original plan was to play small limits and move to Las Vegas where the cost of living was about half of Los Angeles.

But there was one other thing that would be very different. I would now enjoy my life and have the freedom that I wanted. Yes there was risk involved in what I planned. But it was a risk I wanted to take, and if things didn't work out, I would face that fact that when the time came.

I suspect that many people who try to turn pro have similar motivations. They are simply looking for a better life, one they might enjoy. If it means they make less money, drive an old car, and don't live in a fancy house, then that's fine. This is exactly what happened to me and I wouldn't have traded it for anything.

I believe that many of the problems that Dr. Al talks about won't happen as long as you make the effort to have a good understanding of the game. Yes there are some degenerates around the poker rooms, and we all know a few of them. But most of these people would be just as pathetic if poker didn't exist and there's no need to focus on them.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

As someone who took a job that pays less for a better quality of life (Not a poker player) i agree wholeheartedly with Mason's thoughts here. Sometimes it is ok to drive an old car but enjoy your day-to-day life. great post.

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

Very true. I was at University on the path to being an actuary ... and then I decided that I didn't want to sit in an office for 80+ hours a week, despite the fact that I had offers coming in for six figures once I completed my study.

And while I might have made a little more money in the last decade if I had gone the actuarial route, I wouldn't have the freedom that I have today, nor would I have done what I've done.

Agreed. Great post, Mason.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Two roads diverged in a wood
And I took the one less traveled by
And that has made all the difference
- Robert Frost

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

Since people are telling their stories here, might as well add mine...

I triple majored in college in honors math, engineering, and music and graduated summa cum laude in all three. I went to grad school for music and currently hold a part time day job and make the rest of my money on gigs (and poker, but that's mostly just bankroll building, not spendable income). I absolutely could've made more in a math/science/engineering field and I turned down a number of lucrative offers after finishing my undergraduate work. I don't regret going into music for a second despite the fact that money is a little tight much of the time.

The utility of the extra money I'd make as an engineer is worth far less than the utility of the pleasure of doing something I feel passionate about (music).

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

Nice post..

I haven't read al's post, but it sounds like he's the same person who recommend's pro athletes get their college degree instead of making millions playing pro ball.

"Go to college, be miserable in class, get undervalued.. Why make millions and f*ck a bunch of groupies?"

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

[ QUOTE ]


The utility of the extra money I'd make as an engineer is worth far less than the utility of the pleasure of doing something I feel passionate about (music).

[/ QUOTE ]

The utility of the extra money is the key. There came a point in my life when money wasnt as precious as the extra time. But look at the extra money and the extra free time that poker gives you? I closed my own firm, under a blue chip UK investment broking firm, I was pulling in close to $200,000 most years...but, to quote Gerry Maguire...'I hated my place in the world' and felt that poker could give me the time and freedom to do as I pleased without staff and hassles of work and clients. Of the $200k I grossed, I probably only banked after work related expenses like suits, phone bills, driving, entertaining and taxes about $8,000 a month. Thats $64 an hour over 125 hours of poker per month, compared to 300 hours at work and constant bloody exams...wheres the hard decision in that? Im glad I did it.

Great post.

Bingobazza

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

Mason,

I am very glad to see you make this post, as I too have always felt that Dr. Al was way too pessimistic about people being able to make it as a pro. I have played full-time for several years now and almost exclusively online these days. Once a player has the technical skills, knowledge and experience to beat various games at various limits, then what separates those who make it from those who don't are two things. The first of course is a lack of degenerate non-poker leaks. And the second is properly managing your bankroll, especially during a downswing. I have watched many otherwise good players who probably started playing somewhat badly, and although properly bankrolled for the limit they were playing, ride that downswing all the way to the bitter end without ever dropping down in stakes or taking time off to reevaluate their own game as well as the game conditions which might have changed significantly without their adjusting. Ray Zee has posted extensively about these things over the years here and spending some time in the archives is highly recommended to everyone who needs to read about such things.

All of this does indeed require a lot of psychological fortitude to make it long term, but that is true in many other fields as well, which is why I think Dr. Al's pessimism about going pro is overstated.

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

Hi Mason

[ QUOTE ]
Yes there was risk involved in what I planned. But it was a risk I wanted to take, and if things didn't work out, I would face that fact that when the time came.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to know those risks to make an informed decision and I think Dr. Al is doing a great job of informing us!

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

Mason,I think you are a very good author and publisher and probably a decent player, but you were playing 25 draw in LA and had authored a book or two before you left for Vegas.
i'm sure you moved because of the lower overhead but also to start your publishing business. Are you saying that you derived most of your income from playing, because, although I'm sure you are a good player I'm guessing the majority of your income was from the books. The reason I'm stating this is because you have almost never completely derived all of your income from playing, and you should not make this implication. Even if most was from poker at one point and less was from the books, it is still not the same as being a poker pro.

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

I think Dr. Al’s articles are a bit overly pessimistic and a bit depressing too. But that’s a good thing, as it is wayyy to easy to over-estimate the difficulties, risks, and longer-term things you give up vs other career fields by embarking at a relatively young age towards a pro poker career.

You need someone sounding the Gong of Doom to put a little fear into people, if for no other reason that to make sure that when they still do go pro they’ve really thought it thru.

We all naturally draw on our own experiences for advice, and Dr. Al has presumably seen much more of the downside of pro poker than most, and Mason has definitely experienced more of the upside of a career in poker than most.

--greg

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

There is an interesting quandry as the people who need to hear the pessimistic advice will oftentimes think it doesn't apply to them and the people who know it doesn't apply to them are smart enough to realize that maybe they're wrong and are really falling into Group A.

Personally, since most of my friends are affluent, I know it doesn't matter if they get into poker and lose a few hundred, a few thousand, tens of thousands of dollars. PLUS, I know they're smart, so they invariably can at least have poker as a break-even hobby ... and, if not, the money lost at a $5-$10 $10-$20 game is meaningless.

So I have no problem encouraging people that I know that getting into poker is a fun thing, buying them a set of the 2+2 library and ushering them into our wacky world.

Would I be as gung-ho with someone making a mediocre living, that I didn't think had a good chance, with a family to support...? I don't think so.

Many people see the fast cash as an answer and if you're in a position in life where you need the fast cash, poker invariably isn't for you.

But it is for soooooooo many people.

There are lots of questions and lots of variables which is why smart guys like Dr. Al, Mason, and many others can debate the pro's and con's.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

Hi Horse:

I had a contract to do my first book with Gambling Times. The book was delivered in 1985, but they never published it. So I had to hire an attorney and wrestle my book back. This occurred after I moved to Las Vegas, not before, and it was expensive to do this.

I then self published my first book in 1987, and it was followed shortly by two others I put together. In 1988, I decided to have books printed instead of producing "xerox" copies. This was again expensive and so it went.

As the company grew, even though I theorectically was making more from publishing than playing poker, all profits were being reinvested into the company. If I wasn't successful playing poker, Two Plus Two would not exist as we know it.

Today of course things are quie different. We have become very successful. But there were many sacrifices along the way and writing and publishing, even though it has now paid off, actually made things tougher on me for many years.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

thanks for explaining it.

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

[ QUOTE ]
But there was one other thing that would be very different. I would now enjoy my life and have the freedom that I wanted. Yes there was risk involved in what I planned. But it was a risk I wanted to take, and if things didn't work out, I would face that fact that when the time came.


[/ QUOTE ]

But you also weren't still in college or highschool. You had much more under your belt (even just life experience-wise) when you made that decision than many who we see on the forum thinking of making that decision. Hell, many of them are still living with their parents and haven't really developed the concept of monthly bills or the value of money yet.

You do remember how much you 'thought' you knew when you were under 22 than when you look back now, don't you? I think that's what both Al and Ed are primarily targeting. That type of mentality.

b

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

I think an overlooked point is that almost any professional poker player would be making more money at another type of job. The discipline and fortitude required to be a pro are tremendous and better compensated in other lines of work. So many choose the life because they don't want to work for anybody else, but soon discover playing poker for a living is a lot of work and comes with its own sacrifices.

http://thispokerlife.blogspot.com

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

Mason, you make some great points. There are other factors to consider in these situations.

Personally, I believe life is way too short to spend it working 70 hours a week. At my current job, I had the opportunity to make more money and hold a management position. But I've been there before, and it can be an extremely miserable lifestyle.

I opted to remain one of the grunts, but through careful management of my monthly expenses (i.e. not purchasing all kinds of goodies on credit, cooking food at home instead of eating out all the time) I'm able to work 32 hours per week by choice (instead of 40-48) and live well.

Can I afford to purchase a home at this point in my life? Unfortunately, no, I cannot. But I don't have 50K in credit card debt dragging me down, and I DO have a lot more freedom.

I'm going "semi-pro" as a poker player. I have studied and played 7-stud, stud hi/lo, Omaha hi/lo and NL Hold 'Em as the games I enjoy and consider myself well-versed in playing. I don't depend on poker to pay the bills, but I'm giving it a shot to see how well I can do.

While going full pro is always an option, it won't be a possibility until I have 6 months living expenses saved up, and a sizeable bankroll for whichever game(s) and limit(s) I intend to play.

I know a number of people who work 3 jobs and 70-100 hours EVERY week to cover their expenses. They live beyond their means, they cheat themselves out of overtime by working multiple jobs, and they aren't "getting ahead" or happy at all.

I have Monday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday off on a regular basis, and it makes life a hell of a lot more enjoyable (and it makes playing poker much more accessible)

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

A very well written post Mason. I'll have to agree that Dr A was being a little to pessimistic but nonetheless the message that he was trying to convey is very real. I think it's quite honorable for him to go at length on this particular debate while the majority do not agree with him.

He has a lot more life experience here than most of us do and I will heed his warnings.
As for my own personal experiences, how many times have I asked myself "if I only knew at 19 what I know now." He's right, making a living off poker is not easy.

I have a good relationship with senior management and I've had many opportunities to be promoted to management. The money would be nice but it would require me to work many more hours than I do now and I WILL be miserable. For me it's never been about the money. Lately my boss has been pushing me pretty hard and frankly I've been running out of excuses, I just try to avoid the situation altogether.
The main reason why I haven't taken the position is because
I've decided that I do want to go pro. Like you Mason, much of my motivation for going pro was the freedom and never about the money. I'm currently playing at limits way below my means and bankroll because that's where I feel comfortable. I win continue studying and saving. When the time comes I will be fully prepared.

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

I also agree that Dr Al is a little OTT sometimes, but it is with good intent, besides how bad of a message can wait until you finish your degree be? Also a large number of the kids trying or thinking about going pro are not going to be any better than mediocre, you are most of the guys in this thread are well above average intelligence, so you have a massively increased chance of success at a game like poker. I definitely take your point about having personal freedom though, it is surely worth sacrificing some cash for, it is for me anyways.

Regards Mack

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

Damn straight. Give me freedom (which the poker lifestyle can provide to a greater degree than other careers) or give me death.

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm actually somewhat concerned about the articles on "Quitting Your Day Job" that Dr. Alan Schoonmaker is writing. I think there are several major points that he's missing, and I find the articles in direct contrast to my view of playing poker very seriously, as well as being way too pessimistic and downright depressing.


[/ QUOTE ]

His article isn't pessimistic enough. Oh sure, everyone on 2+2 makes their 5BB/100 and everything is hunky-dorry. But this isn't life in the real world. Most poker players (including many, many pros) are really struggling. Struggling hard.

Some like Mason, David and Ray have been quite successful, but this is the exception, not the rule. The Doc hits the nail on the head for most of the working professionals and semi-professionals. He should be pessimistic, and it is a depressing life. A lot of you "kids" have only been doing this a short time, and think everything is peaches and cream. Wait until you've got ten years under your belt.

I had seven winning years in a row until I had my first losing year, and the year after that I struggled--and I'm a damn good player. I thought I couldn't lose, but I learned first hand what variance was all about.

Some have been very successful, and think the Doc has gone too far. The rest of us understand that he knows exactly what he's talking about.

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think an overlooked point is that almost any professional poker player would be making more money at another type of job. The discipline and fortitude required to be a pro are tremendous and better compensated in other lines of work. So many choose the life because they don't want to work for anybody else, but soon discover playing poker for a living is a lot of work and comes with its own sacrifices.

http://thispokerlife.blogspot.com

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. While this is a possibility, many of the characteristics that make one a success playing for a living have less use than other characteristics when it comes to climbing the corporate ladder.

I don't have to kiss ass and politic to make good money playing cards. I also don't have to be concerned with the approval of others, and this is very good for me. While I am good at playing poker for a living, I doubt I'd be good at sucking up to someone I felt knew less than I did in order to get a raise or a promotion.

Furthermore, the idea that one can get some great job right out of college is pretty much a lie. I know a couple of Ivy League graduates with terrific connections who still make less than myself and probably a decent percentage of the pros on this forum. These guys are essentially the cream of the job-pool crop.

I on the other hand, have a degree in humanities from a state university, which makes me fairly knowledgable about some interesting things, but makes my earning potential in the 9-5 world pretty low. The idea that success in a pursuit like professional poker would translate to greater success in the straight world is not really valid. Sure it could, but I think that just as often one would have a less successful life choosing the 9-5 job road.

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

Actually, Mason, I don't think your post goes far enough.

I agree it can be worthwhile and self-affirming to "settle" for a fourth-rate income and driving used cars if it will free you to do what you want. You didn't mention that that freedom can lead to much greater success, too. I assume 2+2 now brings you a little more than 50K/yr, yes? Where would you be now if you'd stay in aerospace?

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

Hi Cat:

Before I left Northrop, our vice president had told me that they wanted to move me into management. So I suspect my salary would be at least triple today what it was when I left.

But you are right. By following the path I did, I am today far more successful than I ever thought was possible. But I did have some lean years where all resources were going into the effort to put this all together.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

And by doing so, you have helped many of us become quite wealthy. Thanks for suffering the lean years Mason. I owe you a Coke.

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

[ QUOTE ]
But I did have some lean years where all resources were going into the effort to put this all together.


[/ QUOTE ]

While I am all for people pursuing their dreams...doesn't this add creedance to those who would voice caution? I mean, if you had lean years, think about what it could be like for your average person.

---Leavenfish

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

At first I agreed with you, then I realized these articles could hurt your book sales, and that you and Sklansky just came fresh out of a board meeting and started attacking these messages (from what I hear), after writing in your own books how hard it is to go pro. Coincidence? I hope.

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

Hi Fish:

I realize now that my "lean years" statement can be somewhat misinterpreted. Unlike many other companies, Two Plus Two was always profitable. It's just that to expand and grow all profits plus some other money I had and what I could borrow were going in.

In addition, and this is very true today, we always have a backlog of outstanding payments. It takes most of our big buyers three to four months to pay up. So while often short on cash, I knew that within the next few weeks more money would show up. But it did make it annoying if I had a few losing nights.

One thing to keep in mind, I always had the option not to do another book or update a current one, and thus either save or put off that investment. This would have allowed the lean years to have ended sooner, but then again our family of books today would not be as complete, and I never had any doubt that in the long run Two Plus Two was going to be a big success.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

You're right, David and I were quite concerned about the impact this would have on our bottom line. In fact, most everything we do is designed to only enhance our wallets. So in the future, I suggest you purchase books from other authors who don't think in this fashion.

MM

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

Interestingly, I am trying to take the opposite route as Mason. I got my BS in Economics 4 years ago, and I have since gotten married and had 2 children.

My plan is to use the flexibility that part time poker playing affords me to go back to school and earn my masters.

Hopefully I'll become so skilled at playing the cards that I won't ever have to use the advanced degree. But more realistically I will have as a backup plan what most resign themselves to.... a job in corporate America. But I will have done it on my terms.

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

NH

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

One of the great things about life, Gary, is that even if you do the opposite of someone that is a success like Mason, it doesn't mean that your results will be the opposite of his. Congrats on having a great game plan - far too few do.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

[ QUOTE ]
At first I agreed with you, then I realized these articles could hurt your book sales, and that you and Sklansky just came fresh out of a board meeting and started attacking these messages (from what I hear), after writing in your own books how hard it is to go pro. Coincidence?
I hope.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat.

And on a personal note: I know Mason, I played against him and I honestly believe that he is the master. He has been my inspiration for years.

Oct

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Fish:

I realize now that my "lean years" statement can be somewhat misinterpreted. Unlike many other companies, Two Plus Two was always profitable. It's just that to expand and grow all profits plus some other money I had and what I could borrow were going in.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, well perhaps I did misunderstand.

You made no mention of 2+2 or anything else; so I assumed you were simply taking about "lean years" in regards to money made from playing poker. I felt that was a fair assumption since that is of course what the article under discussion was about. This is why I said that if someone such as yourself had 'lean years' that this should certainly serve as an advertisment for caution to someone who thinks they can earn a living from playing poker.

If we are to take poker earnings and add in various related ventures then that is another animial entirely.

Thanks,
Leavenfish

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

[ QUOTE ]
and I never had any doubt that in the long run Two Plus Two was going to be a big success.


[/ QUOTE ]

I know that you had 100% confidence that you were publishing the best poker literature available, but can you honestly say you predicted the poker boom? Would you not agree that 2+2, while putting out the best material, would not have had the high sales volume if there wasn't such a strong demand for poker books - a result of the success of poker in general? Just curious.

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

I quit my job and I've been playing full time for 3 years. A sometimes over-looked question is, what job did you leave to start playing poker? I had a dead-end social work job. I could pick up the paper tomorrow and find another job like that. So I had nothing to lose.

http://thispokerlife.blogspot.com

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

Great article, not that we would expect anything less;)
Let mathematics sort the problem out, play half the hours you actually do for your day job( say 50, so play 25 hrs) When you make 2/3 of what your day job pays and have done for some time. Then go Pro???????
I was asked to give my advice to a young college student who had just won a ticket to the WSOP. I'll bore you all with it if i may:)

He asked "Should I Turn Pro"
(If you have to ask, then the answer is NO)
I was more diplomatic of course.

DO both,
Your degree and Main Job can be the safety net for that ladder you want to climb very high on(being a Pro Player)
Best person to reply to this would be the Hawk, he couldnt "JUST BE A POKER PLAYER" his words not mine from the WPT interview after he took some serious money.
Dont limit yourself to just one thing. Your parents only want what is best for you, doing both and seeing where they take you is my advice.
As for the decision to "TURN PRO" well this is usually a decision that is not yours to make, its usually one that is made for you.
Your an Omaha player, well if i tell you that the PauL maxfield that won 1.7$ million was the same Guy that i used to deal to back in 93 and when it was dealers choice he would say "Omaha Please" the other players would mostly moan and say "Aw cant we just have Hold em" well he stuck with it and it paid off(eventually) 12 years later,
but i happen to know that he owns a factory that he is now selling(he's retiring).
But if he hadn't of had this Big Win he would have still been more than OK. If you don't get your big win, will you??
Me i do many things, i'm a Writer and part time(20hrs and up) poker player, and on the rare ocassion i can win more at poker than i earn from the others, but at no time do i rely on the Poker.
When you "have to earn from poker" then its completely different and much more difficult.
I bet you nearly every Top Pro doesnt need the Money, they usually have very successful business's behind them making them money that they can afford to stake at the Tables.
Devilfish- Jewellers Shops
Chan-Resturant Owner
Toby MAguire-Gets paid Millions to wear Latex Suits and prance about :icon_spiderman:
Ben Affleck- As Above (Dare :evil4:)
Ok the last two arent exactly Pro's but you get the meaning.
Very few actually rely on Poker as there main income, you can always play better Poker and your real Game when it don't matter if you lose a bit.
The difference between losing what you cant Afford and what you can is Called Gambling and Gaming.
My advice is don't start gambling, but to also do what you love to do, no matter what.
Sam

Re: Quitting Your Job Articles
 

[ QUOTE ]
Interestingly, I am trying to take the opposite route as Mason. I got my BS in Economics 4 years ago, and I have since gotten married and had 2 children.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the average person, I believe Gary's plan would be the best solution. Poker as a supplemental or at the most a 50% share of income. I do believe there are far too many young kids on 2+2 (I use the word kids liberally in this scenario) who would be doing themselves a disservice if they became a professional player with no other source of income. There are of course exceptions, Mason is living proof.

I believe both Mason and Al to be correct (although I don't like the way Al expressed his POV). Always follow your dreams, yet always be fully aware of the downside of choosing your path in life. Have a backup plan accordingly.

For what it's worth I generate a recognizable portion of my income through poker now, and I am on track to make it equal to at least 1/2 my total income by the end of '06. Poker is my back up plan... it is (like Mason) the means to achieve my real goals in life.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]