Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

$5000 buyin WPT event at the Bike. Blinds are 150/300/50.
I am UTG with pocket Tens. I have roughly T7500. I open
raise to T900 and Dan H., two to my left makes it 2100.
Dan after raising has around T6000. Everyone else folds and I call.

Flop comes Q 2 4 rainbow.

I check and Dan H. bets T2000. What's my play? Comments
appreciated.

Bruce

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

With that stack I limp preflop a lot. That small reraise gives me fits, especially since you raised from strong position and he made such a small reraise. I might fold preflop there despite the fact that I generally will slit my wrists before folding to a tiny reraise. I do fold the flop I think.

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

[ QUOTE ]
With that stack I limp preflop a lot. That small reraise gives me fits, especially since you raised from strong position and he made such a small reraise. I might fold preflop there despite the fact that I generally will slit my wrists before folding to a tiny reraise. I do fold the flop I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spot on IMO. I think Dan's move is coming from way too much strength to have any comfort. He's in EMP and miniraised an UTG raiser as a shortstack. I'd put him squarely on QQ-AA and play accordingly.

I like a limp with this too given the information and stack sizes.

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

Boy I hate limping in this spot. It's level six and we're
going to adjourn for the day in another 45 minutes and I am very shortstacked. Pocket Tens is too good a hand not to play and limping IMHO is bad. I don't have enough chips to play for set equity and if I probably have the best hand why not play aggressively? I have shown some larceny but I haven't been splashing chips like a maniac. I will be raised virtually 100% of the time
if I limp. From my perspective at the time this may be
a defining moment for me. I need chips and I have a decent
hand. If I limp what's my play if I am raised by a large
stack. I'll be OOP. Do I call and see the flop or do
I push BTF?

Bruce

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

Stop n go.

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

[ QUOTE ]
Stop n go.

[/ QUOTE ]

TT is a brutal hand for the stop-and-go. There is almost no chance of gaining EV over a preflop push.

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

Bruce,

This is a very good hand to think about IMO. I agree with you that I dont love limping. I think you gotta raise here with 20bbs or whatever and there are more benefits to raising here than folding. Yes, the small reraise is annoying to deal with, but a vast majority of the time you'll just get called or you'll win the blinds. If you limp and someone raises and you call its just not as happy a place for me as opening UTG and dealing with whatever comes your way.

Now, the small reraise is troubling. Chances are Dan is not messing around here. You raised UTG use that info to your advantage. He's probably not going to look down at AQ 65s or whatever and decide to put in a raise. When he raises you, I think you should either commit your stack or fold, as I dont really see how you can justify getting it all in on a 555 flop but not a Q high flop... The difference between the two is really not much and I'm going to assume you didnt call his raise with the plan to check fold any non-ten flop.

Good players can make this laydown preflop. Its troubling, annoying, etc etc, but I really think you either gotta find the fold in you, or jam it in there (or maybe call to the flop with intentions of not folding very much). Simply calling the raise and check folding this flop doesn't feel right to me.

-Jason

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

Do we have any FE here?

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

[ QUOTE ]

I check and Dan H. bets T2000. What's my play? Comments
appreciated.


[/ QUOTE ]

Answer questions with questions.

Question number one is why play the TT UTG preflop anyway? I'm just a relatively inexperienced amateur player. But early in a big time NLT, hands like 99, TT and JJ are easier to get into trouble with UTG or EP, then they are to fold. Personally, folding the tens preflop is almost an easy decision. Did you consider folding the tens?

Question number two is why did he reraise preflop?
- Was there anything to indicate that he had control over you? If yes, then perhaps he reraised as a dog to try and take the pot on the flop or the turn.
- Did he reraise to isolate you? If yes, then he's probably thinking that you have to have some sort of decent hand to raise UTG. So what do you think he thinks you have? AA, KK, QQ, AKs? If he already holds one of those big hands, then the likelihood of you also holding one of them are reduced.

After the flop, what is he thinking?
- He is a smart player, so he has probably already considered the possibility that you could have made top pair and may be trying to check raise.
- Similarly, he could be thinking that you could have AKo, JJ or TT and could be concerned about being beaten by the Q on the flop.

So what could he have?
- It is doubtful that he has any kind of Q because he would likely slow play a set. So what hands does that rule out? Probably all of the preflop raising hands like AQo, AQs and KQs.
- With those hands eliminated what are the hands that he could now have reraised with preflop? Seems to make the AA, KK or AK a bit more obvious.

My conclusions:
- You have to fold or reraise. He has bet so as to give you roughly 5:2 at the pot.
- If he has AK and is semi-bluffing, then he only has to win what, about half the time to make it profitable? Seems quite likely that he could be making this play. And if you go over the top and make him fold, then he has only lost 25% of his stack. What are the chances that he would risk 1/4 of his stack on a semi-bluff this early in the tournament?
- He could have AA or KK putting you on AQ, hoping that you will reraise and he could go over the top again. In that case, his only fear would be that you have QQ.
- He is probably the better player and will likely outplay you over the long run. If you are not very very confident that your tens are good, then I think you have to let them go.

While I think it is highly likely that he is holding AK and had a good read on you that a semibluff would work, it is too early in the tournament for you to risk staying with the hand. Were I you in this case, I would admit that I am probably ahead, but it is too early to find out the hard way. I muck and move on.

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

[ QUOTE ]
But early in a big time NLT, hands like 99, TT and JJ are easier to get into trouble with UTG or EP, then they are to fold. Personally, folding the tens preflop is almost an easy decision

[/ QUOTE ]

well first, especially in a deepstacked tournament, 9's and T's and J's are extremely playable, i don't know what would make you say they are a fold.. Even for only set value you have to play these hands.

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

UTG, I limp-fold anything over a raise of $900. Hope to spike a set on the flop for cheap. So if you limped and he made it $2100...I would fold.

As for the flop. I think you're behind and fold to fight another day.

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

i think key info for this hand is how ur table image has been?

so......

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But early in a big time NLT, hands like 99, TT and JJ are easier to get into trouble with UTG or EP, then they are to fold. Personally, folding the tens preflop is almost an easy decision

[/ QUOTE ]

well first, especially in a deepstacked tournament, 9's and T's and J's are extremely playable, i don't know what would make you say they are a fold.. Even for only set value you have to play these hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

How so?

TT UTG, with presumably 8 or 9 players yet to act. What are the likely hands to call? To reraise?

Let's assume that no hand with less than a Q (or worse, even a J) in it will be cold calling or reraising a UTG raise. What are possible hands are left over?

AA, KK, QQ, JJ
AKo, AKs, AQs AJs

That's probably about it. I can't consider that AQo and AJo are legit cold calling hands for a UTG raise.

So you are (very roughly) 50% likely to be a major dog. Are you willing to donate 1/4 or 1/3 of your stack knowing it is a coin flip to be a huge dog?

And you are (very roughly) 50% likely to be little better than even money (55-45 or so). Are you willing to donate 10% o 15% of your stack on a limp, knowing full well that you will have to make dead money out of it if you are reraised?

Where is the value in that kind of play?

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

I'm limping with the intention of raising all-in somewhat frequently.

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

Thanks for the reply. Let me extrapolate. Twice previously
I had folded to reraises by Dan. From his perspective I felt like he knew I was trying to rob him, which I was when I attacked his blinds. He was in the small blind and big blind, respectively, when he reraised me and
I was forced to fold. When he reraised me with my smallish stack I felt
like folding was a poor option. Firstly if I survived there was the metagame issue and secondly I felt like there
was a fair chance he was guilty of larcency with his reraise. Thirdly Dan H. was playing quite differently than
one would expect from play described in his book.

Bruce

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm limping with the intention of raising all-in somewhat frequently.

[/ QUOTE ]

what's the minimim hand that you'll limp re-raise all-in with? TT seems pretty low to me.

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

If you'll really be reraised virtually 100% of the time you limp, I'd think limping with tens and then reraising/pushing would be just fine.

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

Dan managed to get into your head with his variation plays, and made it seem like he was playing much different than what his book would say. A world-class player like him , with the reputation he has for conservative play, has no choice but to make variance moves that obviously work quite well for him. I give him credit here, and the best line is fold. Actually, call and flop quads to his boat [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

[/ QUOTE ]

Answer questions with questions.

Question number one is why play the TT UTG preflop anyway? I'm just a relatively inexperienced amateur player. But early in a big time NLT, hands like 99, TT and JJ are easier to get into trouble with UTG or EP, then they are to fold. Personally, folding the tens preflop is almost an easy decision. Did you consider folding the tens?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would never ever fold tens in any situation from any position when the pot hasn't been opened yet

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

I think this information might lead me to believe he's even stronger.

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm limping with the intention of raising all-in somewhat frequently.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the best play. That said, I probably fold this flop.

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

With almost a minimum reraise of an UTG raise, Harrington is clearly representing a big pair. I have seen some LAG types do that as a play to steal a pot in $100 online tournaments. While Harrington is very tight, he is probably capable of that sort of thing, given his reraise with 62o at the WSOP final table. Since you didn't flop a set, and an overcard flopped, unless you have a strong read, I would give him the pot.

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

Here's some more info. What's my image? I'm not sure how
to answer that unless someone at the table is reading this
and cares to answer. If I had to venture into this question
I would probably say that I'm opportunistic with a degree of
larcency, although I am probably a degree on the tight side. Secondly, how was Dan H. playing? He was playing very snuggish, much more so than I thought he would based
on reading both of his books. He raised multiple times
only to fold to a reraise. I thought based on what I saw
that he was capable of laying down a hand if he thought
he was beat.

Bruce

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

Hero pushes.

The miniraise could have been an isolation play with AK

Both players are near a critical point, and the pot is swollen. I think hands with Q's in them are unlikely for DH.

That leaves JJ,KK,AA and AK. TT is about 38% against this range. There's about 5K in the pot, you have 5K left, DH has bet 5K (you have to call all your chips if you do anything). So it looks like a fair bet against a former world champion... Good deal.

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm limping with the intention of raising all-in somewhat frequently.

[/ QUOTE ]

what's the minimim hand that you'll limp re-raise all-in with? TT seems pretty low to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree. Getting all of one's chips in with less than 50% confidence of having the best of it, it way too low for my tastes.

This also leads to another interesting question. What should one's confidence probability of having the best of it, typically be in order to get all chips in?

I realize this is not a black and white question, because there are things like reads, stack size, etc.

But how confident do people like to be of having the best of it before going all in?

Personally, if it is early in a tournament and I am understacked (covered) but not short stacked, then my confidence of having the best of it has to be at least in the 75%-90% range, if not almost absolutely certain.

By the way, for the OP Bruce: What was the outcome? What did you do? What did you find out about DH's hand?

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

[ QUOTE ]
He raised multiple times only to fold to a reraise.


[/ QUOTE ]

What were the sizes of the reraises relative to his stack?

Not that I'm anywhere near the player he is, but I like this kind of tactic for information gathering and testing players, especially early in the tournament.

How did they react to the raise? Did they show a tell when they reraised? Did they fold? How did the other players not in the hand react? Did they notice? Were they surprised?

IMHO, this is a very good "investment" tactic to set up one or more players for a opportunity to come in over the top with a very strong holding.

I use it a lot in online tournament play, in particular early in the tournament or when I have a dominant stack. I've found it to be very effective against the right player, not a dummy but not a wizard, just someone who knows enough to notice but is not smart enough to see the rest.

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

I wouldn't attribute his raising and folding to reraises as being some probing strategy. The reraises were proabably big. He isn't known as "Action Dan" for nothing.

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

I lead this flop, A check here looks like a PP lower than a Q. Id bet this flop with AK if you checked it to me.

If you're going to check here. I call the 20k and lead the flop.

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hero pushes.

The miniraise could have been an isolation play with AK

Both players are near a critical point, and the pot is swollen. I think hands with Q's in them are unlikely for DH.

That leaves JJ,KK,AA and AK. TT is about 38% against this range. There's about 5K in the pot, you have 5K left, DH has bet 5K (you have to call all your chips if you do anything). So it looks like a fair bet against a former world champion... Good deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Dan could have TT or 99 some of the time too.

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

[ QUOTE ]
I lead this flop, A check here looks like a PP lower than a Q. Id bet this flop with AK if you checked it to me.

If you're going to check here. I call the 20k and lead the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

A notoriously tight top professional is representing a big pair. Give him the pot.

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

I agree with Jason here, calling PF is not an option with your stack, it's either fold or reraise all in.

With all the information you gave, previous hands with Dan, Dan's position and stack size (he knows he has several players behind him left to act), I think folding is the best option in this spot.

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

You must make a stand; he will RR you everytime until you do.
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the reply. Let me extrapolate. Twice previously I had folded to reraises by Dan.

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

I don't see how you can eliminate AK as a possibility from DH's range of hands. If you don't think DH can play AK like this then you shouldn't call BTF (if he only has AA-JJ... which is not reasonable).

If hero folds he will have an M=7.7 and be in the BB, pretty close to push and fold mode after the blinds pass.

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

outcome please!!!

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

Maybe I'm a little crazy, but I play this hand differently than most (and lose more chips than most?).

I like the PFR and the call. You are calling 1200 into a pot that has 3950 in it already and DH has 6000 more chips to go after in case you flop the set so you are getting implied odds of 8.3:1 on what figures to be about a 7.5:1 proposition.

Okay, you wiffed the flop - now what? Some say push, some say check fold. I say how about betting 2000 into the 5150 pot. 2000 is 33% of Dan's remaining stack - so you are essentially 'putting him to a decision for all of his chips'. If he can call off 33% of his stack with a hand less than TT - then good for him, but most of the time I think you are getting him to fold anything but AA/KK/QQ here (and an unlikely AQ).

This strategy (IMO) gives you the best of both worlds, if you are ahead then you win a nice pot and if you are behind you still live to see another day as you are check-folding any call or raise.

Good idea or bleeding chips?

Results
 

After Dan bet I studied the board quickly and pushed. I felt
Dan with my two previous folds and his tight image was capable
of making this reraise with a smaller pair than mine, AK, and
obviously AA, QQ, and JJ. Would he reraise with AQ or AJ? I don't know, but I'm guessing probably not. We'll forget the
Harrington 10% bluff factor, because I don't think that existed with him that evening. Based on his range of hands
I thought I had a legitimate chance of having the best hand.
I also thought he might even fold JJ with the Queen on board.
Dan studied the board for seemingly ever and folded. I never did see his hand. I won the pot, but I'm still not sure if I played the hand correctly. Boy that was one tough
hand for me to play.

Bruce

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
still not sure if I played the hand correctly. Boy that was one tough
hand for me to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO you played the hand beautifully.

Re: Results
 

YOUR PREVIOUS TWO FOLDS BOUGHT YOU FOLD EQUITY.

AWESOME. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
I won the pot, but I'm still not sure if I played the hand correctly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Congrats on taking one down from a master.

My questions would be these. Did you already have it in your head to check raise when you checked? If yes, then what did you think he held? If no, then what do you think he held?

Re: Pocket Tens vs. Dan H. at Legends
 

That's great!

I can't imagine DH laying down JJ or AK getting ~4:1, so it looks like a smaller pair to me or air.