80 pf question
 

80-160 on UB I have ATo in the BB,
folded to a laggy button, gus hasen i think, who raises. sb 3 bets, sb is laggy on all streets the way ub players are, but prolly just a a bit better on all streets than most of the regs. so that is too say good, but too loose and agg.
so, i have ATo what is your standard move?
dave

Re: 80 pf question
 

If it was Hanson on the button, and the SB knew it was Hanson on the button (or at least had an idea of his opening standards) I dont think you can fold. He could really have any two there, and if the SB is aware of that, his three bet range is probably really wide, expecially if he is too aggro as it is. I'd say capping is better than calling, but Gus is never folding preflop here so that makes it closer. I like capping though.

Re: 80 pf question
 

Fold. ATo is not a good hand sandwhiched between two lags. Youre paying too much to see this flop and your hand will miss a significant amount of time or it will hit middle pair alot with the Ten, and you will have alot of tough postflop decisions. This is a very high variance play and whatever return you think you can muster by participating in this pot is not worth it in my opinion

Re: 80 pf question
 

folding is wrong. i think there's a good argument for just calling and seeing how wild and stupid they can get on the flop when an A comes or even a T. let's just say it's the sort of situation i like to be in, but change it to an A7o or K9o and it's much less appealing.

there's one important thing you didnt mention and that's was it a full table or 5 handed or less or what?

Re: 80 pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
folding is wrong. i think there's a good argument for just calling and seeing how wild and stupid they can get on the flop when an A comes or even a T. let's just say it's the sort of situation i like to be in, but change it to an A7o or K9o and it's much less appealing.

there's one important thing you didnt mention and that's was it a full table or 5 handed or less or what?

[/ QUOTE ]
The minute I saw your name on this post, I knew i was in trouble:) Lets just say I'm folding this preflop cuz I dont want to face the postflop challange. But I know you, Mike, play under these conditions all the time, so if anyone can handle this situation its you. That said, if folding is a mistake here it can only be a very small one at best which is why its easy for me to fold.

Re: 80 pf question
 

Call or cap, I'm inclined to cap. You have a freaking monster for the situation if those guys are as you say they are.

Re: 80 pf question
 

"I'm folding this preflop cuz I dont want to face the postflop challange."

well then i hope you arent playing 80-160 online... i know im not and it's precisely because i dont want to face these sorts of challenges.

that said, i very seriously do not consider folding here to be a small mistake, i think it's a significant error if made repeatedly shorthanded against these uber aggro types. you cant let them run over your bb like that.

Re: 80 pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
"I'm folding this preflop cuz I dont want to face the postflop challange."

well then i hope you arent playing 80-160 online... i know im not and it's precisely because i dont want to face these sorts of challenges.

that said, i very seriously do not consider folding here to be a small mistake, i think it's a significant error if made repeatedly shorthanded against these uber aggro types. you cant let them run over your bb like that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your points are valid, and no i dont play shorthanded, and i dont play 80-160 online. Maybe I dont even have a right to post my opinion in this thread. That said I am still convinced that if I folded ATo in this specific situation every single time for the rest of my life I would not be giving up much at all. I mean how many times am I going to be in the BB and a super agg player open raises on the button and an aggressive SB player 3 bets it, and I peak down to see ATo. Most of the time I'll have nothing and fold or ill have a hand I like and Ill cap or call. I am interested if others think that folding ATo in this spot is a big mistake. Although I am convince its not, my mind is still open.

Re: 80 pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
80-160 on UB I have ATo in the BB,
folded to a laggy button, gus hasen i think, who raises. sb 3 bets, sb is laggy on all streets the way ub players are, but prolly just a a bit better on all streets than most of the regs. so that is too say good, but too loose and agg.
so, i have ATo what is your standard move?
dave

[/ QUOTE ]

c'mon dave.

easiest fold ever.

and yes thats gus hansen (sp?). when i started playing the 80 game, gus made the games good. he was probably 30/20/2 and extremely over agressive. so easy to counter him. now he plays a very very solid 18/11/2.5 game. i have been extremely impressed at the rate at which he has learned proper limit play and strategy. ive seen him make near expert plays.

he is no longer laggy by any means. against many buttons, ATo is showdown bound HU. against him, not so much...anymore.

your read of him in this spot is off imo. of course, i could be wrong, but i play against him with the read above.

Barron

Re: 80 pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Call or cap, I'm inclined to cap. You have a freaking monster for the situation if those guys are as you say they are.

[/ QUOTE ]

unfortunately, the read he provided, imo is wrong.

gus plays a great game of limit holdem now and is, if anything, too tight.

Barron

Re: 80 pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call or cap, I'm inclined to cap. You have a freaking monster for the situation if those guys are as you say they are.

[/ QUOTE ]

unfortunately, the read he provided, imo is wrong.

gus plays a great game of limit holdem now and is, if anything, too tight.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

I never got that memo. The last few times I played with him he was real loose and real aggro, but that was probably three weeks ago or so. Do you agree it would be wrong to fold in that spot if he had the same range he would have had in the Stars games when he first started playing, or are you still folding here?

Re: 80 pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call or cap, I'm inclined to cap. You have a freaking monster for the situation if those guys are as you say they are.

[/ QUOTE ]

unfortunately, the read he provided, imo is wrong.

gus plays a great game of limit holdem now and is, if anything, too tight.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

I never got that memo. The last few times I played with him he was real loose and real aggro, but that was probably three weeks ago or so. Do you agree it would be wrong to fold in that spot if he had the same range he would have had in the Stars games when he first started playing, or are you still folding here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm inclined to play anyway, but I'm a lag,

Re: 80 pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
he is no longer laggy by any means. against many buttons, ATo is showdown bound HU. against him, not so much...anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's still open raising from the button, though.

Re: 80 pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
ive seen him make near expert plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, thanks for the eval, champ.

Re: 80 pf question
 

Mike,

Could you explain to me why it matters whether if was short handed or not?

Thanks, PT

Re: 80 pf question
 

can i ask what 30/20/2 means?? what does each number represent

is 18/11/2.5 the perfect player??

Re: 80 pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Mike,

Could you explain to me why it matters whether if was short handed or not?

Thanks, PT

[/ QUOTE ]

If the game was shorthanded, more aggressive play is even more the norm. So Gus' range of stealing hands is bigger in a SH game.

Re: 80 pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the game was shorthanded, more aggressive play is even more the norm. So Gus' range of stealing hands is bigger in a SH game.

[/ QUOTE ]

This prevailing wisdom has always been interesting to me, and I think it's wrong. That doesn't mean that people don't behave more aggressively short in this situation.

I'd be capping this in either situation, BTW.

Re: 80 pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the game was shorthanded, more aggressive play is even more the norm. So Gus' range of stealing hands is bigger in a SH game.

[/ QUOTE ]

This prevailing wisdom has always been interesting to me, and I think it's wrong. That doesn't mean that people don't behave more aggressively short in this situation.

I'd be capping this in either situation, BTW.

[/ QUOTE ]

are you saying the wisdom that one should steal from the button more aggressively playing SH is wrong, or the wisdom that people believe others do steal more aggressively SH is wrong? (i think that makes sense....)

Re: 80 pf question
 

VPIP/PFR/AF


See here for info on each.

section 3 about stats

Re: 80 pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
80-160 on UB I have ATo in the BB,
folded to a laggy button, gus hasen i think, who raises. sb 3 bets, sb is laggy on all streets the way ub players are, but prolly just a a bit better on all streets than most of the regs. so that is too say good, but too loose and agg.
so, i have ATo what is your standard move?
dave

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a fold or cap situation . I would cap generally unless I had a good reason not to.

Re: 80 pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ive seen him make near expert plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, thanks for the eval, champ.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude, wtf. fine, you think im a duche. but c'mon, i see a damn good play when i see a damn good play. im not saying that i am an expert, just that i can recognize a great play. you dont need to make a post like that in response to an honest opinion.

how about trying : "you may have overestimated his abilities." or "be careful what you call expert b/c what is to you may not be to the "real" experts like ray etc.."

no, you have to be a douche right back.

thanks.

Barron

Re: 80 pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call or cap, I'm inclined to cap. You have a freaking monster for the situation if those guys are as you say they are.

[/ QUOTE ]

unfortunately, the read he provided, imo is wrong.

gus plays a great game of limit holdem now and is, if anything, too tight.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

I never got that memo. The last few times I played with him he was real loose and real aggro, but that was probably three weeks ago or so. Do you agree it would be wrong to fold in that spot if he had the same range he would have had in the Stars games when he first started playing, or are you still folding here?

[/ QUOTE ]

of course if his range is larger, then sb's range is larger, then ATo is a clear play.

Barron

Re: 80 pf question
 

I'll start a thread about this someday soon.

Re: 80 pf question
 

ahhh...barron i am not that stupid, i can tell when he is playing tight or loose or whatever. recently gus has been playing better full table, but he was a total manic, pre and post flop for most of the game. it was 4-5 handed and he was regually capping any ace and any mid holding from any position. postflop he was caopping any draw and any pair on the flop. he may play well sometimes but this was not one of those times.
dave

Re: 80 pf question
 

see my other post, he was playing real laggy and cardnial was 3 betting him with all types of [censored]. i think i may have even undersold how laggy they were playing at this time. gus was killing the game, getting at least a little lucky, winning a huge percentage of the post and most of the big ones he played. so i think he was trying to use this as momentum to totally run over the game, and it just ogt laggier and laggier.
dave

Re: 80 pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
ahhh...barron i am not that stupid, i can tell when he is playing tight or loose or whatever. recently gus has been playing better full table, but he was a total manic, pre and post flop for most of the game. it was 4-5 handed and he was regually capping any ace and any mid holding from any position. postflop he was caopping any draw and any pair on the flop. he may play well sometimes but this was not one of those times.
dave

[/ QUOTE ]

cap that sh*t. his agression will allow you to hopefully knock out the sb in this growing pot.

Barron

Re: 80 pf question
 

you are simply saying that b/c everyone is willing to mix it up more and give more action you can and should play tighter b/c all your hands have less folding equity, you will get play back at more often and will generally steal much less.
correct?
dave

Re: 80 pf question
 

cool, agreed, thanks.
dave

Re: 80 pf question
 

Don't speak to the twoplustwo captain like that. He's the absolute apex of intelligence and wisdom. Just ask him, he'll tell you.

Re: 80 pf question
 

what is gus hansen's screen name on UB, or any other famous players on ub?
thx

Re: 80 pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ive seen him make near expert plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, thanks for the eval, champ.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude, wtf. fine, you think im a duche. but c'mon, i see a damn good play when i see a damn good play. im not saying that i am an expert, just that i can recognize a great play. you dont need to make a post like that in response to an honest opinion.

how about trying : "you may have overestimated his abilities." or "be careful what you call expert b/c what is to you may not be to the "real" experts like ray etc.."

no, you have to be a douche right back.

thanks.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

You said you've seen him make "near expert" plays. Please explain to me what plays you saw that were "near expert" and how you distinguished them from "expert" plays. Thanks.

Re: 80 pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ive seen him make near expert plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, thanks for the eval, champ.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude, wtf. fine, you think im a duche. but c'mon, i see a damn good play when i see a damn good play. im not saying that i am an expert, just that i can recognize a great play. you dont need to make a post like that in response to an honest opinion.

how about trying : "you may have overestimated his abilities." or "be careful what you call expert b/c what is to you may not be to the "real" experts like ray etc.."

no, you have to be a douche right back.

thanks.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

You said you've seen him make "near expert" plays. Please explain to me what plays you saw that were "near expert" and how you distinguished them from "expert" plays. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

plays like checkraising the turn OOP w/ 2nd best hand to get a tight MP squeezed between gus & fish to fold a hand that beats both so that gus gets to SD vs. the fish HU.

this kind of play is a separator imo between a good player and a great player, but not one that is necessarily expert because it can be arrived at by deduction and not necessarily multilevel + mathematical analysis that encompases what i would consider expert play. therefore, that particular play is "near expert" imo.

clearly i can be wrong b/c thats just my opinion.

-Barron

Re: 80 pf question
 

Huh?

Re: 80 pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

ugh, i thought i was bein clear. what would you like me to clarify ?

Barron

Re: 80 pf question
 

i respect you more now, that was a good reply.

Re: 80 pf question
 

Use less big words for him.

Re: 80 pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
i respect you more now, that was a good reply.

[/ QUOTE ]

uh oh...i guess i better post something stupid and naive, and fast [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Barron

Re: 80 pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
plays like checkraising the turn OOP w/ 2nd best hand to get a tight MP squeezed between gus & fish to fold a hand that beats both so that gus gets to SD vs. the fish HU.

this kind of play is a separator imo between a good player and a great player, but not one that is necessarily expert because it can be arrived at by deduction and not necessarily multilevel + mathematical analysis....

[/ QUOTE ]

I respect your opinion and I'm not jumping on the bash bandwagon here, I just don't think that play is as advanced as you say it is for one reason. I do it myself. I'd guess many others on here do it also. Therefore, I can guarantee you, it's a pretty good move but not near expert.

Re: 80 pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
plays like checkraising the turn OOP w/ 2nd best hand to get a tight MP squeezed between gus & fish to fold a hand that beats both so that gus gets to SD vs. the fish HU.

this kind of play is a separator imo between a good player and a great player, but not one that is necessarily expert because it can be arrived at by deduction and not necessarily multilevel + mathematical analysis....

[/ QUOTE ]

I respect your opinion and I'm not jumping on the bash bandwagon here, I just don't think that play is as advanced as you say it is for one reason. I do it myself. I'd guess many others on here do it also. Therefore, I can guarantee you, it's a pretty good move but not near expert.

[/ QUOTE ]

just because people tend to be hard on themselves (you in this case, but we all are in general) doesn't make the play any less good. using your opinion of your lack of expert level play to argue that a play you do must be nonexpert is fallacious, logically speaking.

its a very good play and to see somebody who ive also seen play like an idiot do it while also playing controleld good poker makes me say he plays good, at times. the play itself is near expert because of the thinking involved. i understand you dont agree but you provided no reasoning behind dropping the clasification of the play.

Barron