JJ interesting preflop situation
 

Party 1/2 6-max. SB just lost a big pot and, from past experience with him, I know he's likely to be tilting. He has about $94. BB is fairly aggressive both pre- and post-flop. He's reraised some of my steal raises and made me lay down. He has about $210. I cover and have JJ on the button. If people are paying attention, they've seen me play in a pretty high gear the past half hour. I've been getting some good cards and hitting some good flops with bad cards. I haven't shown down only quality hands but I don't think I've been caught making any big postflop bluffs, either (though I've made a few).

Folded to me, I make it $8, SB calls, BB reraises to $26. I call, SB pushes for $95, BB calls. What's my play?

Some thoughts:
If BB had folded, I'd've instantly called SB as his range is very wide due to the tilting and irritation and not being allowed to see the flop cheaply with something he decided he wanted to play. BB's range is also wider than AA-QQ/AK as he's seen me steal a lot from the button. The fact that I just called his reraise and didn't 3bet myself might lead him to believe I do not have a premium holding and he probably also picked up on SB's tilting so calling that all-in does not require a big hand, either. Obviously, if I knew exactly what his range to call here was, it would be a simple math problem to figure out what the best play is.

Anyone think I should've 3bet BB's reraise myself instead of calling?

Re: JJ interesting preflop situation
 

Push. And yes sometimes I would 3-bet BB's raise. But in these exact circumstances I would just call to entice the tilting SB to push in to get the BB to either push to isolate or call so that I can push. You get exactly what you wanted here. Push it in.

Re: JJ interesting preflop situation
 

I think this is a pretty standard muck, as you said, I would've instacalled the shortstack, I just dont think you have enough information to know you have BB beat.
Noah

Re: JJ interesting preflop situation
 

I dont understand why you dont 3bet JJ here, this is the situation where you have the cards to play back at the BB preflop. The tilter will continue to tilt, just hope to get his stack next orbit - I see this situation as more important to go after the BB.

Re: JJ interesting preflop situation
 

how much are you gonna make it to 3 bet him, your less likely to get free money from the tilter if you 3 bet.

Re: JJ interesting preflop situation
 

Last time I made this fold I was shown A9s and A10s.

Lame.

Re: JJ interesting preflop situation
 

Is 3 betting the reraise from BB a good idea here? There are a load of flops that can make our JJ not look so pretty, and if BB is as capable as you describe him, he may take advantage of this. You most likely have SB beat, so either you are racing against 3+ overcards, or behind BB's bigger pair and racing SB (qk??, aq??), maybe even dominating him (a10s, aj, 77-1010). If you are ahead now it's barely, and if you are behind you are waaaay behind. Id have to muck this here.

Thinking more, I can see a case for 3 betting SB here. Then we bet big on any flop and if he calls we slow way down. Is SB capable of smoothcalling us and trapping us if rags hit?

Re: JJ interesting preflop situation
 

Why can't you be way ahead of TT-88? Or A9s? Or QJ? Or 86?

Results
 

I decided BB's smooth call without too much deliberation of the SB all-in was indicative of a very good hand that wanted me to stick around and folded. It turned out to be a bad fold with a good result as the tilter had A3o and the BB had AQs. The flop came 8-high with two of BB's suit and he made the nuts on the river.

I'm not convinced on whether or not 3betting JJ after BB's reraise is the best play or not. Somebody convince me one way or the other...

Re: Results
 

You thinking is correct if he is a very good player. But there is a very high likelihood that he isn't. And it didn't have a good result if he would have folded his AQs to your push and you would have been left to wipe the floor with tilter's A3o getting 2:1 on your money. Boo for your fold.

Re: Results
 

I'm the villain in this hand - bb.

I didn't give you credit for as much as jj - as you said I thought you had a decently wide range. Since I figured the sb was pretty tilted, I figured my aqs was probably easily good enough to call his push. My main error here in my opinion was the very small reraise. I am duly ashamed, but I suppose that helped in folding you out, no?

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Unless you were thinking on a very high level and knew that the OP was a very good player and that he would read your smooth call as a ton of strength, you should push over the SB's push.

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How is that? I mean, this isn't very high level is it? I'm coming from a sng/mtt background, and my impression is that this is a rather basic level. High level against a high level opponent would be pushing imo. If I was confident that he perceived me as a high level thinker, while I was confident that he was that as well, I'd probably push instead.

Also, most likely hand for that call of my reraise is a pocket, no? I mean, the only hand he'd play non-pocketed is AK. If he has pockets, it probably isn't aces or kings. All of these hands I'm happy to see a flop against, cause I can fold them out (especially since I'm acting first).

I really can't see that this is a clear push.

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Nothing overcalls the SB's all-in and then folds on the flop. Do you really think anybody would call $95 preflop and then fold for $125 into a $285 pot?

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well you've got your numbers wrong, no? It's more like closing the action for ~60 into a ~200 pot.

JJ flops an overpair or a set like 55-60% of the time to take the specific example.

I can certainly see flops where I'd be inclined to fold. Maybe they're too far fetched to make a difference?

I don't know, my main concern is that I feel I convey more strength by calling than by pushing.

Re: Results
 

For exact numbers, here's the scenario. Shorty had $93.34, I only had $200 and you had me covered (my mistake in the OP). There are zero hands that should call $93.34 (I had put in $30 already so it would'v been $63.34 more) and then fold on any flop for $106.66 more into a $280.02 (less rake) pot. Putting in half your stack preflop and then folding for the other half on the flop is terrible.

Re: Results
 

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my main concern is that I feel I convey more strength by calling than by pushing.

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This is exactly my point. This is a true statement. But against a typical donkey, they will not realise this. Against them, you actually convey more strength by pushing. But against a good player, such as the OP, you are right. Calling shows more strength and it worked exactly as planned here. I assume you were calling if OP pushed?

Re: Results
 

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my main concern is that I feel I convey more strength by calling than by pushing.

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This is exactly my point. This is a true statement. But against a typical donkey, they will not realise this. Against them, you actually convey more strength by pushing. But against a good player, such as the OP, you are right. Calling shows more strength and it worked exactly as planned here. I assume you were calling if OP pushed?

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Shejk knew Ghazban was 2+2 tho. I know cause I AIM:ed it to him couple of hands earlier.

Re: JJ interesting preflop situation
 

I think I lay JJ down here. If I was BB with AA/KK and probably QQ then I would likely just call SB, and hope to drag you along, figuring the rest of the money goes in on just about any flop.

he might reraise you with a lot of hands, but does he get 95 in the middle with every expectation that will you call/push, with a lot of hands ?

Re: Results
 

Yep I'm definately calling a push from OP.

As already stated, OP didn't play like a donkey, and I knew he was a 2+2er.

Re: Results
 

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For exact numbers, here's the scenario. Shorty had $93.34, I only had $200 and you had me covered (my mistake in the OP). There are zero hands that should call $93.34 (I had put in $30 already so it would'v been $63.34 more) and then fold on any flop for $106.66 more into a $280.02 (less rake) pot. Putting in half your stack preflop and then folding for the other half on the flop is terrible.

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Maybe I'm too influenced by playing tournaments here (this is very possible) but I both see flops that I fold jj to and my feeling is that people fold against me in such scenarios every now and then.

You just put up a range for me and then compare that with the flop and figure out what kind of equity you expect. I cannot imagine that this is a never fold on the flop.

I thought that the argument against this line (just calling instead of pushing) would be that you would sometimes get away when the flop came something like AKx, or KQx.

Apparently this is not so (since you claim it to be terrible to fold there) so then there is only good things to be gotten from the extra FE I get by calling preflop instead of pushing, no?

Re: Results
 

Sounds like youre a very good player and you played it very well. You've made some great posts in this thread. Thanks.

Re: Results
 

Whether you called or pushed was mostly irrelevant. I knew that, if I was going to play the hand, the rest of my money was going in (either preflop or on the flop, it doesn't really matter from my perspective). You could either be a donk who doesn't realize he's pot-committed or a good player who's trying to show weakness with the flat call. Either way, I don't think you get away on any flop so I have to decide right at that point whether or not I wanted to play for my stack. The fact that you just called instead of pushing was not a large factor in that decision; I would've folded to a push as well.

Let me ask you a question: if I overcall SB's all-in and the flop comes T55 (as it did) but WITHOUT the flush draw, are you pushing in as a dog, check/calling as a dog, or check/folding?

Re: Results
 

I'd probably push. That said, I'm not certain that's the best play. I'd put you on a range like 99-qq (maybe too wide?) and ak with perhaps some odd hands thrown in. On top of that, with a ten high flop, I'm not getting a lot of FE against AK. I don't know though, it might still be worth it to give me the aces as extra outs to take the pot down, the few times an opponent folds ace high on that flop to my push.

If I had ak instead, a better line would be check calling, or what do you think?

Re: Results
 

I don't think it matters, which was my original point. The pot is too big and no flop is going to scare either of us away given that we had enough of a hand to get there in the first place. If I overcalled SB's all-in and the flop came A-high and you pushed, I'd call as a massive dog. It would look stupid at the time, but my decision was already made preflop. If you pushed and I called on an A-high board and you had TT, I'd look like a genius; the point is that, with so much going in preflop, I'm not getting away from anything.

You don't have to answer this, but I'm curious as to what you'd do with AQo or AJs. I was honestly surprised to see a hand as weak as AQs from you and felt it must've been pretty close to the bottom of your range for this play.

Re: Results
 

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I was honestly surprised to see a hand as weak as AQs from you and felt it must've been pretty close to the bottom of your range for this play.

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That's interesting. I think AQs would be right around the middle of his range for making this play against a known tilter with a short stack. That's why I like a push from you with JJ. Good chance they both have aces, too, which cuts down on their outs against you.

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So what hand range do you give him?

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Any decent ace, any decent pair. Something like {88+,A9s+,ATo+}?

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Any decent ace, any decent pair. Something like {88+,A9s+,ATo+}?

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I must be way too tight for 6-max.

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The guy's a TILTED SHORT STACK! How much do you need to call him?! His hand range is HUGE!

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The guy's a TILTED SHORT STACK! How much do you need to call him?! His hand range is HUGE!

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You don't think the presence of the player behind you is a significant factor?

Re: Results
 

I do if I know he's good. But in the normal game against unknowns (which is what I thought you thought he thought you were and you thought he was, although apparently he was AIM tipped off to the fact that you are good) no it doesn't.

Re: Results
 

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I do if I know he's good. But in the normal game against unknowns (which is what I thought you thought he thought you were and you thought he was, although apparently he was AIM tipped off to the fact that you are good) no it doesn't.

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You have a point. I'm more used to the weak-tightness of the full ring Party game where the BB's original reraise is a very big hand most of the time and the call of the SB push with somebody to act behind makes AA/KK even more likely. This hand ended up being a blind steal/resteal with a tilter in the middle where both the stealer and restealer actually had pretty good hands.

And to nit-pick some more, nobody said I was any good; just that I posted here [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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That's a good point. In fact, I played with you the other day and you lost money. Fish.

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I also have losing stats for you [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Results
 

Yes, I'd be glad to answer the question about my range. I think it can help myself some as well.

First off, like you said, this was more like a steal/resteal situation than anything else, and the sb came much like a surprise.

The initial reraise is a pretty wide range, sometimes I do it with small pairs, sometimes with SCs sometimes with good hands. With aqs here in the same situation, I'd often call the first raise. You being ID:ed as a good player though were a prime target for such reraises. It may have happened before, I don't know for sure. The sb I figured would have a weak hand that he'd fold against a reraise.

As I said earlier, I fcked this up a bit by making my reraise to small. I think I raised to 28 with ~20 in the pot already. A decent sized reraise here would have been more like 40-50.

Anyways, I naturally was a bit worried about your call. To me, this is a medium to high pair, but not likely aa, kk, perhaps not qq, or hands like ak. Since I was giving you such nice odds, I figured you might also call with speculative hands like SCs and small pockets.

When the sb pushes, I'm thinking that he has played this hand really weird, and since he's on tilt, I'm assuming he's got a pretty crappy hand. I was putting him on a smallish pair most likely, but with a lot of other hands in the mix as well, premium pairs as well, however unlikely.

To call that I'd need a range like 88+, aq+. I'd fold my sc, any lower pockets, and I'd seldom reraise with a hand like aj in the first place. Against this range, your jacks certainly would have been a good call. The fine thing about this is that I'd play my premium pockets exactly the same in this scenario, apart from that I might push over the small blinds push.

Thinking about this a bit more, I realize that the initial reraise, while coming every time with AA, KK, QQ, won't come at all that often with hands like 88 or AQs (or naturally small pockets or scs that I fold to the push). So, whether it's a good call, I'm not that certain any more. It's quite difficult to quantify just how often/seldom I make this move with the lower part of my range.

If sb would have folded instead, this would have been an interesting hand with a flop like T55. I'd almost certainly cb.

Re: Results
 

Nice post.

I do want to point out that I would smooth call your reraise with AA-QQ 100% of the time because I'm almost positive SB is going to push and then, if you call him, you have to call my overpush (or flop push, but I'd probably get it in preflop) and will almost certainly be in big trouble (if you've got a better hand, I'll pay it off). I was pretty sure he was going to push over your reraise after calling my original raise as he was tilting and its very common for people in his mental state to make a "f--- it, I'm all-in" move will all sorts of crap (in my experience, I've seen any pair, any ace, KQ/KJ, even QJs). I was expecting you to fold many of your restealing hands to that push and then I would call it with almost certainly the best hand and a pretty good overlay from your reraise. I didn't think it through enough to know what I would do if you called/pushed (a severe oversight on my part, I'll admit) so, when you called, I had a decision to make.

Re: Results
 

Nice read on the sb. I expected a reraise from you with the big hands. I see now that I was very incorrect in thinking so.