Happy Hour KK hand. Fold Preflop?!
 

No reads on the villains, but the min raise is a little suspicious. At this point I have 1000 chips left, still plenty for this level. Call here and try to accumulate or fold preflop the Hellmuth way.

#Game No : 2615539695
***** Hand History for Game 2615539695 *****
NL Texas Hold'em Trny:15254563 Level:2 Blinds (10/20) - Sunday, August 28, 22:39:06 EDT 2005
Table Happy Hour $10,000 Guaranteed(436271) Table #7 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: yia111 ( $1340 )
Seat 2: Luigi399 ( $1305 )
Seat 3: nErv_ ( $1925 )
Seat 4: Lintje ( $695 )
Seat 5: DaActionKid ( $1105 )
Seat 6: moneymannc ( $1005 )
Seat 7: rsaylor ( $1005 )
Seat 8: BillChen ( $920 )
Seat 9: acekicker_70 ( $230 )
Seat 10: z32fanatic1 ( $1455 )
Trny:15254563 Level:2
Blinds (10/20)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to z32fanatic1 [ Ks Kh ]
Lintje folds.
DaActionKid folds.
moneymannc calls [20].
rsaylor calls [20].
BillChen folds.
acekicker_70 folds.
z32fanatic1 raises [90].
yia111 raises [160].
Luigi399 calls [150].
nErv_ folds.
>You have options at Table 44803 Table!.
moneymannc folds.
rsaylor calls [140].
z32fanatic1 raises [410].
yia111 is all-In [1180]
Luigi399 is all-In [1145]
z32fanatic1......

Re: Happy Hour KK hand. Fold Preflop?!
 

Call everytime

Re: Happy Hour KK hand. Fold Preflop?!
 

never ever will i find a fold of KK preflop online.

Re: Happy Hour KK hand. Fold Preflop?!
 

[ QUOTE ]
never ever will i find a fold of KK preflop online.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Happy Hour KK hand. Fold Preflop?!
 

Its a good job you aren't a complete n00b (in terms of post count), otherwise i would cringe at the reactions this post would get.

Re: Happy Hour KK hand. Fold Preflop?!
 

There are some posts where it's an obvious call, like a person open pushes in a $20 party tourney or something. I thought this was a little tougher because it was a $100 tourney, my raise was min-reraised, my reraise to 500 was then REraised AND called. Not the typical "OMG FOLD KK?!?!!" post I thought.

Re: Happy Hour KK hand. Fold Preflop?!
 

I'll admit it really does look like aces here but hell, look at the pot at this point...around 2900 in there with 735 to call so you're pretty much getting "proper" odds if one of them does have aces. Add in the chance that neither one does have you beat and I think it's a call. I'll never feel bad goin out with kings but I would kick myself in the head if I folded and they showed queens and AK.

Re: Happy Hour KK hand. Fold Preflop?!
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop the Hellmuth way?

[/ QUOTE ]

*sigh*

Re: Happy Hour KK hand. Fold Preflop?!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop the Hellmuth way?

[/ QUOTE ]

*sigh*

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd love to see Jean-Robert Ballande and Hellmuth play heads-up ...

first hand ... both with stacks of T1000 ... blinds 25/50
Phil raises from the SB with KK to 200
Ballande reraises from the BB with 22 to 400

Phil grimaces, stands up from his chair, circles the room lamenting about how he keeps running into monsters whenever he picks up a hand and amateurs usually go broke with his hand, and folds, showing his KK.

Ballande knocks the table ... "Excellent laydown, sir .. excellent laydown."

Re: Happy Hour KK hand. Fold Preflop?!
 

after the villain re-reaised to 160 you should have PUSHED!
no re-raising malarchy, just flat push.

Re: Happy Hour KK hand. Fold Preflop?!
 

In a tournament here... I call in a heartbeat, but I'm not happy about it. As far as never folding KK preflop online? I did it for my first time last night. Playing 400NL UTG+1 limps, me(MP) raises 5BBs($20), MP+1 moves all-in for 380. Easiest fold of my life. I said "KK" and mucked, donk showed aces.

Re: Happy Hour KK hand. Fold Preflop?!
 

[ QUOTE ]
after the villain re-reaised to 160 you should have PUSHED!
no re-raising malarchy, just flat push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, you should be either calling this or pushing right here.

I don't know what I'd do to reraise #4, but given the level of play early on in these it's probably *still* a call.

Re: Happy Hour KK hand. Fold Preflop?!
 

What is the buy-in? If it's $20 or less, I call.

$50 or more, I fold.

Edit: addendum, just looked at the pot odds. You gotta call.

Re: Happy Hour KK hand. Fold Preflop?!
 

I'm not much of a tourney player but my thinking here is if you call and win you've built a huge stack early on and will be in the driver's deat to finish in the money. If you call and lose you busted with KK, what can you do? It very well could be the only big hand you get all tourney.

Good luck,
Matt

Results
 

After reviewing it I guess I should've called due to how much was in the pot. I just had that horrible feeling like he definitely had AA and I was just throwing the chips away. I decided to fold for 2 reasons. First, I still had 1000 chips left. If I only had 400 left, my tourney is over anyways if I fold so I might as well call. Secondly, the other player called all the raises, leading me to believe he had either JJ, QQ or AA, eliminating that as possibilities for the other villain. I decided to fold and ended up getting 2nd in the tourney in the end. It's probably results oriented, but I just had that horrible feeling you get sometimes.

***** Hand History for Game 2615539695 *****
NL Texas Hold'em Trny:15254563 Level:2 Blinds (10/20) - Sunday, August 28, 22:39:06 EDT 2005
Table Happy Hour $10,000 Guaranteed(436271) Table #7 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: yia111 ( $1340 )
Seat 2: Luigi399 ( $1305 )
Seat 3: nErv_ ( $1925 )
Seat 4: Lintje ( $695 )
Seat 5: DaActionKid ( $1105 )
Seat 6: moneymannc ( $1005 )
Seat 7: rsaylor ( $1005 )
Seat 8: BillChen ( $920 )
Seat 9: acekicker_70 ( $230 )
Seat 10: z32fanatic1 ( $1455 )
Trny:15254563 Level:2
Blinds (10/20)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to z32fanatic1 [ Ks Kh ]
Lintje folds.
DaActionKid folds.
moneymannc calls [20].
rsaylor calls [20].
BillChen folds.
acekicker_70 folds.
z32fanatic1 raises [90].
yia111 raises [160].
Luigi399 calls [150].
nErv_ folds.
>You have options at Table 44803 Table!.
moneymannc folds.
rsaylor calls [140].
z32fanatic1 raises [410].
yia111 is all-In [1180]
Luigi399 is all-In [1145]
rsaylor folds.
z32fanatic1: lol
Your time bank will become active in less than 20 seconds. If you do not want it to be used, please act now.

z32fanatic1 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Tc, 6h, 4h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 3s ]
Luigi399 shows [ Qc, Qd ] a pair of queens.
yia111 shows [ Ah, Ac ] a pair of aces.
yia111 wins 35 chips from side pot #1 with a pair of aces.
yia111 wins 3310 chips from the main pot with a pair of aces.
Player Luigi399 finished in 80 place
>You have options at Table 12350 Table!.
Luigi399 has left the table.
The Small Blind left the table. The Dealer button remains in place.
Game #2615555356 start.

Re: Happy Hour KK hand. Fold Preflop?!
 

[ QUOTE ]
In a tournament here... I call in a heartbeat, but I'm not happy about it. As far as never folding KK preflop online? I did it for my first time last night. Playing 400NL UTG+1 limps, me(MP) raises 5BBs($20), MP+1 moves all-in for 380. Easiest fold of my life. I said "KK" and mucked, donk showed aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

In this situation I would definitely call with KK because this is just such a massive overbet which is more likely to be AK, JJ or QQ than AA. Also, it's only 1 buyin so it's not too big a loss.

Re: Results
 

The band-aid "never fold KK preflop online" statement really is out of line.

You are in the Stars 25k, there are 38 left with $15k for 1st. You are currently in 14th place with t280,000 and blinds are 10k/20k plus antes.

You are the 2nd biggest stack at the table, just behind the leader with 300k who is very solid and a known commodity as a winner.

You have a tight image and have shown down AK, AK, JJ, and 77 (against a shortstack) in 45 minutes.

You pick up KK UTG and raise 4xBB to 80k.

Folded to chipleader who pushes all-in for 300k, and it is folded back to you.

Thus far he has not shown any propensity towards wild plays, and the only time he has come over the top was with QQ vs a medium-stack that would not cripple him.

There are times when folding KK is correct. Period.

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
The band-aid "never fold KK preflop online" statement really is out of line.

You are in the Stars 25k, there are 38 left with $15k for 1st. You are currently in 14th place with t280,000 and blinds are 10k/20k plus antes.

You are the 2nd biggest stack at the table, just behind the leader with 300k who is very solid and a known commodity as a winner.

You have a tight image and have shown down AK, AK, JJ, and 77 (against a shortstack) in 45 minutes.

You pick up KK UTG and raise 4xBB to 80k.

Folded to chipleader who pushes all-in for 300k, and it is folded back to you.

Thus far he has not shown any propensity towards wild plays, and the only time he has come over the top was with QQ vs a medium-stack that would not cripple him.

There are times when folding KK is correct. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the record, I sure don't fold KK here.

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
The band-aid "never fold KK preflop online" statement really is out of line...You are currently in 14th place with t280,000 and blinds are 10k/20k plus antes...You pick up KK UTG and raise 4xBB to 80k...Folded to chipleader who pushes all-in for 300k

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
The band-aid "never fold KK preflop online" statement really is out of line.

You are in the Stars 25k, there are 38 left with $15k for 1st. You are currently in 14th place with t280,000 and blinds are 10k/20k plus antes.

You are the 2nd biggest stack at the table, just behind the leader with 300k who is very solid and a known commodity as a winner.

You have a tight image and have shown down AK, AK, JJ, and 77 (against a shortstack) in 45 minutes.

You pick up KK UTG and raise 4xBB to 80k.

Folded to chipleader who pushes all-in for 300k, and it is folded back to you.

Thus far he has not shown any propensity towards wild plays, and the only time he has come over the top was with QQ vs a medium-stack that would not cripple him.

There are times when folding KK is correct. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would call in this case as well because it's only 1 reraise and AK plays like that enough to make it profitable. Also, that's a $10 tourney in which case I'm never folding KK preflop because there are too many donks. My thinking with my hand was that my reraise to 500 basically announced that I had either AA or KK. For the other guy to repush, I thought he could only have AA there. Even QQ just calls most likely (As the 2nd villain did when facing a raise and minreraise).

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are times when folding KK is correct. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not the one you just mentioned... thats for sure. You shouldn't fold and leave yourself with 10 bbs, instead of calling and getting to about 30 bbs. That fold would be pretty bad-- unless of course you want to inch up the payout structure... which is really bad in itself.

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The band-aid "never fold KK preflop online" statement really is out of line.

You are in the Stars 25k, there are 38 left with $15k for 1st. You are currently in 14th place with t280,000 and blinds are 10k/20k plus antes.

You are the 2nd biggest stack at the table, just behind the leader with 300k who is very solid and a known commodity as a winner.

You have a tight image and have shown down AK, AK, JJ, and 77 (against a shortstack) in 45 minutes.

You pick up KK UTG and raise 4xBB to 80k.

Folded to chipleader who pushes all-in for 300k, and it is folded back to you.

Thus far he has not shown any propensity towards wild plays, and the only time he has come over the top was with QQ vs a medium-stack that would not cripple him.

There are times when folding KK is correct. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the record, I sure don't fold KK here.

[/ QUOTE ]



o and i would call the massive overbet with KK in a cash game

Re: Happy Hour KK hand. Fold Preflop?!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
never ever will i find a fold of KK preflop online.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Results
 

I think it is a big waste of a poker players time to think about when to fold kings preflop, and he should be balancing his check book, or hitting on random women, or running on the treadmill, or watching TV instead. All are more productive then figuring when to fold kings preflop. Chances are you would be losing EV when you do it. This is the closest I have ever come to folding KK preflop:

From the Stars 300 on saturday, I doubled through early to 4800, and the SB in the hand has about 3600. Blinds are 15/30, and he is a sort of tricky, aggressive player, but has shown some donkeyness in the past.

Folds to the button who makes it 90 to go, SB mini raises to 150. I reraise to 450 with black kings. Button folds, sb then reraises to 2000. My first instinct is to fold because if he had queens, he knows worse hands will fold to that and better hands will call, and therefore he wouldn't put in a 4th raise with queens, only aces or kings. Then it occurred to me that someone who min raises from the SB would also have done that again with AA to my reraise. But with QQ he fears that I have an ace or king, and wants to take it right now with queens. Before when he reraised, he was juicing the pot, but now he just wants the pot with his queens. If he had aces he probably would have made it 1200, to induce me to call. So I decide he has queens and push.

So yeah, they have queens, AK, or some random worse hand more often then they have aces.

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
The band-aid "never fold KK preflop online" statement really is out of line.

You are in the Stars 25k, there are 38 left with $15k for 1st. You are currently in 14th place with t280,000 and blinds are 10k/20k plus antes.

You are the 2nd biggest stack at the table, just behind the leader with 300k who is very solid and a known commodity as a winner.

You have a tight image and have shown down AK, AK, JJ, and 77 (against a shortstack) in 45 minutes.

You pick up KK UTG and raise 4xBB to 80k.

Folded to chipleader who pushes all-in for 300k, and it is folded back to you.

Thus far he has not shown any propensity towards wild plays, and the only time he has come over the top was with QQ vs a medium-stack that would not cripple him.

There are times when folding KK is correct. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the above situation sure as hell isn't one of them.

Nick

Re: Results
 

I'm not believing these responses.

Maybe the fact that the average stack in the tournament was 170k makes a difference? Even if I fold and leave myself "only" 10xbb, I'm still above the average. At this point the tournament is all-in or fold.

Villain KNOWS I have JJ+, AQs+ and whether or not it's a $10 buy-in is irrelevant. After rebuys+addons it's suddenly a $50 tournament, or even more depending. For me it was an $80 tournament - does that suddenly make it a call?

You all seem to think that this was some kind of gross overbet and therefore I should call, and that is how you rule out AA. But then please tell me a)how villain would proceed if he indeed did have AA, and b)what his range is.

Of course I called. It was against my better judgment as I put him on a QQ/KK/AA/AKs range, but believed he had AA. However, I couldn't fold KK vs 1 all-in reraise and a chance to move to #2 in chips with about 4 tables remaining.

The fact that this an extremely solid player, the fact that he is in excellent shape before the hand, the fact that he knows I have a huge calling range after committing that many chips, the fact that I've shown to be a solid preflop raiser at this table and against him many times in the past, and finally the fact that I'm the only one who could cripple him makes anything but QQ at the very least incredibly unlikely.

Now I wait for someone to tell me his range includes 99/TT because "he was OBV trying 2 accumulate!1"

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not believing these responses.

Maybe the fact that the average stack in the tournament was 170k makes a difference? Even if I fold and leave myself "only" 10xbb, I'm still above the average. At this point the tournament is all-in or fold.

Villain KNOWS I have JJ+, AQs+ and whether or not it's a $10 buy-in is irrelevant. After rebuys+addons it's suddenly a $50 tournament, or even more depending. For me it was an $80 tournament - does that suddenly make it a call?

You all seem to think that this was some kind of gross overbet and therefore I should call, and that is how you rule out AA. But then please tell me a)how villain would proceed if he indeed did have AA, and b)what his range is.

Of course I called. It was against my better judgment as I put him on a QQ/KK/AA/AKs range, but believed he had AA. However, I couldn't fold KK vs 1 all-in reraise and a chance to move to #2 in chips with about 4 tables remaining.

The fact that this an extremely solid player, the fact that he is in excellent shape before the hand, the fact that he knows I have a huge calling range after committing that many chips, the fact that I've shown to be a solid preflop raiser at this table and against him many times in the past, and finally the fact that I'm the only one who could cripple him makes anything but QQ at the very least incredibly unlikely.

Now I wait for someone to tell me his range includes 99/TT because "he was OBV trying 2 accumulate!1"

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to have an odd definition of the word "know."

Because he "knows" you have a "huge calling range," you should lay down KK here? Maybe what he "knows," or thinks he knows, is that you're not likely to want to play for all your chips.

I don't think any of us "rule out AA," or at least I don't. Just because he might have the one hand that beats you doesn't mean you're supposed to fold, though.

Re: Results
 

I put the villains range on AA-TT, AK, AQ. I would play all those hands (except maybe TT) the same way he did. Odds are he doesn't have it. You are only in 14th place, not exactly the same as the top 2 players going at it. You also only have what, 7 rounds left? Folding here is a big mistake.

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not believing these responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretend you're him, or I'm him, or MLG is him, it doesn't matter. You think he/I/you are gonna reraise yourself with exactly aces and nothing else? I guess you're folding queens in that spot or something? AK? You definitely fold jacks no matter what?

I repeat: lol. I add: results oriented lameness.

Re: Results
 

0evg0, in that example, someone would literally have to take my life to prevent me from clicking call. even then, my lifeless soul may find a way.

Re: Results
 

Listen to Bill Fillmaff. Fold KK preflop. They are not the nuts. Play perfect poker.

















Play perfect poker.
Play perfect poker.
Play perfect poker.
Play perfect poker.

Re: Results
 

Whatever. Like I said, I put his range on QQ/KK/AA/AK.

Yes, I believe he folds TT and JJ without any problem.

If I put myself in his place, I put "me" on the same range of QQ+/AK. So if he is able to do that as well (and why shouldn't he be able to?) then explain how TT/JJ even get to be in this conversation. The fact of the matter is:

-He is table leader.
-He knows I have QQ+/AK, and with the amount invested I will call his all-in regardless of which of those hands I have.
-I am the only person at the table who can cripple him.

So then why would he put his money in with QQ knowing that he's a dog against the range he puts me on (even if he includes JJ) knowing that I will call his all-in?

Why would he put all of his chips in for a "potential" coinflip (though if he puts me on even JJ+/AK it's obviously not a flip) when he has nothing invested and virtually 0 FE?

I thought for about 5 seconds, convinced myself that I was correct about his AA, and then hit the "You'd Be A [censored] Moron To Fold This" button.

End of thread.

Re: Results
 

I dont know why you even posted that example because noone is folding KK there. and you really dont need a analysis to realize that

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
The band-aid "never fold KK preflop online" statement really is out of line.

You are in the Stars 25k, there are 38 left with $15k for 1st. You are currently in 14th place with t280,000 and blinds are 10k/20k plus antes.

You are the 2nd biggest stack at the table, just behind the leader with 300k who is very solid and a known commodity as a winner.

You have a tight image and have shown down AK, AK, JJ, and 77 (against a shortstack) in 45 minutes.

You pick up KK UTG and raise 4xBB to 80k.

Folded to chipleader who pushes all-in for 300k, and it is folded back to you.

Thus far he has not shown any propensity towards wild plays, and the only time he has come over the top was with QQ vs a medium-stack that would not cripple him.

There are times when folding KK is correct. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was this supposed to be an argument for folding KK preflop??? It's a pretty weak one. I'd call here all day every day. The fact that he's shown to be a winning player means that he should have some sort of move in his bag other than playing just the nuts.

Re: Results
 

How does he know you have QQ-AK? Did you tell him you post on 2+2 and are a tight player? If he knew you would fold everything but AA to a reraise in that situation, he should be reraising you everytime. Don't over think it too much or you'll start seeing non-existant monsters everywhere. I don't think many people in the stars rebuy ever fold JJ at this stage in the tourney.

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
Whatever. Like I said, I put his range on QQ/KK/AA/AK.

Yes, I believe he folds TT and JJ without any problem.

If I put myself in his place, I put "me" on the same range of QQ+/AK. So if he is able to do that as well (and why shouldn't he be able to?) then explain how TT/JJ even get to be in this conversation. The fact of the matter is:

-He is table leader.
-He knows I have QQ+/AK, and with the amount invested I will call his all-in regardless of which of those hands I have.
-I am the only person at the table who can cripple him.

So then why would he put his money in with QQ knowing that he's a dog against the range he puts me on (even if he includes JJ) knowing that I will call his all-in?

Why would he put all of his chips in for a "potential" coinflip (though if he puts me on even JJ+/AK it's obviously not a flip) when he has nothing invested and virtually 0 FE?

I thought for about 5 seconds, convinced myself that I was correct about his AA, and then hit the "You'd Be A [censored] Moron To Fold This" button.

End of thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, if I'm reading this right....

You're opening range is QQ or better and AK, his pushing range is the same and you consider both you and him to be winning playes? These are all pretty ridiculous statements.

Re: Results
 

Yes, of course, but when average stack is 8-9xBB, no matter how good you are, there aren't exactly that many "moves" to be made.

And posting on 2+2 = respect? What?

I've played with Villain in all kinds of tournaments a million different times. He knows I'm not making this play with 22 or AJ.

And finally, I'm not one to fold anything but AA - as was obviously shown when I called on this hand. I'm sure I'm giving the impression that I'm some kind of nut peddler, but nothing can be farther from the truth. I would be surprised if Villain thought he had any FE at all when he pushed.

Re: Results
 

Are you disagreeing with Bill Fillmaff? You need to pick up a copy of Secret System immediately. www.billfillmaff.com

Re: Happy Hour KK hand. Fold Preflop?!
 

Hey wait, this hand is illegal. You're only allowed a bet and three raises in no-limit!

...oh, wait, it wasn't at the Bike. Nevermind.