maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

table is playing real tight and weak. people are checking three streets with flopped FH's and minraising minbets. im basically sitting and waiting for it to get SH. effective stacks 1400.

EMP makes it 25 i think, many callers to me on bb with 86[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], i make it 140, EMP calls everyone else drops.

Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (400ish)

what's the plan?

fim

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

I dont really like the idea of playing an OESD on a 2 flush boards, hurts your outs a lot. AK of spades isnt going anywhere and if you bet out you're most likely going to get raised if EMP has anything close to a hand. You're hand disguised, but if you hit your straight with a 3rd club you're not going to get much action. Also by reraising preflop if you check your opponent will probably put you on a PP smaller than Queens. This is a good thing as he will bet smaller amts and hope to make you call along hoping he has a good hand.


I say bet out, give up on the turn if you dont hit. Fold to a reraise on the flop. If you miss the turn and he bets a small amt (1/4 the pot or so) I call. If you hit the river there is no way he can put you on 86 and you will likely get a nice chunk of his stack and put him on tilt, and make everyone else play more aggressive with their hands. which you can adjust too.

Sometimes when I hit a flop hard I overbet the pot, you could also get wild and do this if you have it in your game, if hes a thinking player he'll either put you on air or the nuts, you said they were playing weak so he may fold.

ultimately the best way to play this hand depends on table dynamics, how you see your opponent and how he sees you. How you've been playing draws, how he plays certain hands, etc..

please critque my thinking I need to learn something, this is all redundant thinking, Im probably not thinking on a high enough level so yea.

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

if i pot it and he pushes im getting odds to call with my OESD against pretty much all hands in his range.

also, just to be clear to the impending rush of replies i can feel coming: i feel the preflop play to be +EV in a vacuum. consider playing this flop a long term freeroll.

fim

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

If you'll have odds to draw to the OESD if you pot it and he pushes i think potting it and calling a push is the best option. I forgot about stack sizes.

I like the play even more if you're up against regulars and this play will get you action in the future from them.

Im still getting this move as slightly -EV against these hands.

AA , KK , QQ , JJ , AKs, AQs, AJs, KQs
KJs, QJs, AKo, AQo, AJo, KQo, KJo, QJo

Am I making a mistake?

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

bet half the size of the pot.

Meet the other bridge (if he raises) when you get to it.

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

I would check given that they are minbetting alot I'll be more then happy to get cheap cards here (with the chance emp is slowplaying a legit hand that will pay off if you hit)

A big bet could lead into trouble if called and you hit your stright and the flush comes or board pairs.

A small bet could be usefull if you could put him on a big pp KK-QQ (AA seems dead since he didn't reraise inless you have been stealing alot he may just call.) as I see him just calling with those holding (seeing if the flush hit's the turn) If it doesn't and you hit you should get paid off nicely.

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

well, 400 pot, i bet 400, they raise to 1260 total so then it's 860 to play a final pot of ~3K looks like an autocall with 1/3ish equity.


fim

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
well, 400 pot, i bet 400, they raise to 1260 total so then it's 860 to play a final pot of ~3K looks like an autocall with 1/3ish equity.


fim

[/ QUOTE ]

oh yea, duhhh. Its late...

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

This is ridiculous. It's better just to push all-in yourself on the flop than to let him do this to you when he could be bluffing with the best hand. In fact, if you ever overbet the flop, I think this is a decent spot to do it.

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

bet half his stack

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

wow

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is ridiculous. It's better just to push all-in yourself on the flop than to let him do this to you when he could be bluffing with the best hand. In fact, if you ever overbet the flop, I think this is a decent spot to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying if I plan to call a push I'm better off just pushing myself?

If its +EV pot odds wise to call a push dont we want our opponent to push? An overbet or push might cause him to fold.

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is ridiculous. It's better just to push all-in yourself on the flop than to let him do this to you when he could be bluffing with the best hand. In fact, if you ever overbet the flop, I think this is a decent spot to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, if that's your opinion of the situation then there clearly exists a better option.

fim

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is ridiculous. It's better just to push all-in yourself on the flop than to let him do this to you when he could be bluffing with the best hand. In fact, if you ever overbet the flop, I think this is a decent spot to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying if I plan to call a push I'm better off just pushing myself?

If its +EV pot odds wise to call a push dont we want our opponent to push? An overbet or push might cause him to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about what you just wrote.

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
table is playing real tight and weak. people are checking three streets with flopped FH's and minraising minbets. im basically sitting and waiting for it to get SH. effective stacks 1400.

EMP makes it 25 i think, many callers to me on bb with 86[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], i make it 140, EMP calls everyone else drops.

Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (400ish)

what's the plan?

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

What would be your line with AA here? do that.

One might be, 1/2 pot flop, check-raise turn allin.

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is ridiculous. It's better just to push all-in yourself on the flop than to let him do this to you when he could be bluffing with the best hand. In fact, if you ever overbet the flop, I think this is a decent spot to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, if that's your opinion of the situation then there clearly exists a better option.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm assuming you're talking about check/raise all-in. But it all depends on your play. For instance, I would basically never check/raise top set here for fear of giving a free card. But I would overbet all-in with it. I don't remember if you said if villain knows your play here, but that would make a big difference in my decision as to how to play the flop.

And to the guy who was afraid of villain folding here: are you serious? Cause I'm pretty happy if I push and he folds. I currently have 8 high.

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is ridiculous. It's better just to push all-in yourself on the flop than to let him do this to you when he could be bluffing with the best hand. In fact, if you ever overbet the flop, I think this is a decent spot to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying if I plan to call a push I'm better off just pushing myself?

If its +EV pot odds wise to call a push dont we want our opponent to push? An overbet or push might cause him to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about what you just wrote.

[/ QUOTE ]

be nice. yeah he's obviously still learning but at least he's not being a jerk about it.

fim

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is ridiculous. It's better just to push all-in yourself on the flop than to let him do this to you when he could be bluffing with the best hand. In fact, if you ever overbet the flop, I think this is a decent spot to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, if that's your opinion of the situation then there clearly exists a better option.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm assuming you're talking about check/raise all-in. But it all depends on your play. For instance, I would basically never check/raise top set here for fear of giving a free card. But I would overbet all-in with it. I don't remember if you said if villain knows your play here, but that would make a big difference in my decision as to how to play the flop.

And to the guy who was afraid of villain folding here: are you serious? Cause I'm pretty happy if I push and he folds. I currently have 8 high.

[/ QUOTE ]

wait, wait, so you're considering metagame of playing this hand under the guise of another? i don't think that a player will see big raise preflop, then checkraise all in on the flop and think "hey, he wouldnt play a strong hand like that for fear i called his gimundo raise with a SC and am now on the flush draw".

he's made his commitment decision already. he's on TT+ and AK. now answer my question.

fim

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

If your opponent folds you have 0% chance of losing.

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
If your opponent folds you have 0% chance of losing.

[/ QUOTE ]

profound.

fim

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

I'm not sure but I think trying for a check/raise here seems very unnatural. Against a good opponent, I see it going check,check very often. I would probably wait a few seconds and then push it all-in. But I would do that with QQ, too. And probably AA also. Basically, I don't see any reason to bet small than all-in which will let him put YOU to a decision for your stack when you can put HIM to a decision for his stack. Unless you check trying to see the turn for free when he checks it back. But if he bets, I really don't see him folding to a check/raise. Maybe he will, though. You know I don't play in this game...

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

Just call me Confucius.

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure but I think trying for a check/raise here seems very unnatural. Against a good opponent, I see it going check,check very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

wait wait wait. i have 8 high with a draw to the nuts. i'm behind.

you're seeing a good player giving me a free card as a bad thing?

fim

ps- not trying to pick on you here or anything, but i dont think you're at your best in this thread.

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

EMP opens weak and gets a ton of callers.

you hit it a lick out of the BB on a steal. i really like this play and do it a lot myself. unless you have an awful image, a weak table gives you credit for a HUGE hand here every time.

the amount you raised is dependant upon the # of limpers, but i like to typically overbet in this spot. basically announcing "i dont want to play my huge hand OOP against a ton of people, but you can call my big raise if you hate money."

now emp opener just calls you. no worries now about being up against AA/KK as even johnny slowplay himself isn't wanting the rest of the limpers getting in for that price.

to be honest, when i am making this same play i pretty much welcome the opener calling my raise, and going to the flop heads up. too often he is simply not going to hit the flop hard enough to continue, so his PF call means more money for me to steal.

that said, im pretty much betting every single flop regardless of how scary it may be. usually slightly less than the pot, say 350 or so.

had the board come 10-6-2 i would fire right into it. had it come A-Q-10 i would fire right into it.

too often people aren't going to continue. and almost sure as hell not going to make a move on you as you seem so comitted to your hand.

the strong continuation is very much +++EV in spots like these, so for me it is bombs away. the fact i flopped a decent draw is simply icing.

that said, what do you do if called?

some friends consider it a leak of mine sometimes, but i am firing off the second barrel on almost every turn. ace--push. spade--push. queen--push.

i make sure when engineering the betting that i will have at least if not more than the pot for the turn push.

again i still consider this +EV in my experience. i have seen a hand like KQ call the flop bet. only to fold to the turn because they finally believe you.

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is ridiculous. It's better just to push all-in yourself on the flop than to let him do this to you when he could be bluffing with the best hand. In fact, if you ever overbet the flop, I think this is a decent spot to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying if I plan to call a push I'm better off just pushing myself?

If its +EV pot odds wise to call a push dont we want our opponent to push? An overbet or push might cause him to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about what you just wrote.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im going to go out on a limb and say an open push here is best. As it puts your opponent to the test for all his chips. And if he calls you're still in good shape.

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

Eh, nevermind.

SpaceAce

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure but I think trying for a check/raise here seems very unnatural. Against a good opponent, I see it going check,check very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

wait wait wait. i have 8 high with a draw to the nuts. i'm behind.

you're seeing a good player giving me a free card as a bad thing?

fim

ps- not trying to pick on you here or anything, but i dont think you're at your best in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yo man, I'm hoping you just overlooked it when I wrote
[ QUOTE ]
Unless you check trying to see the turn for free when he checks it back.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that's okay, but I also think it will give up the vast majority of your fold equity in the hand. So I'm more in the chuddo camp of either betting the flop and leaving yourself enough to push the turn or just pushing the flop. The thing with checking to try to see the turn is that you really don't want to fold this hand. You built a big pot preflop and you want it. If you check and he checks and you miss the turn, now you have less fold equity and less pot equity than you did on the flop. Yuck. I am definitely keeping the initiative here and betting the flop. In my mind, the only question is how much to bet. And I think the two best routes are 350 (so you can push the turn) or all in.

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
Eh, nevermind.

SpaceAce

[/ QUOTE ]

profound.

fim

ps- [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

just asking what your move would be if a 5s or Ten of spades comes on the turn?

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

also, if the table has been playing weak tight, wouldn't you want to check, possibly getting a free card? or if MP does bet here, it might be a small sized bet that you can call getting odds.

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
just asking what your move would be if a 5s or Ten of spades comes on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

you get to find that out (real turn was 5s) when i post my thoughts and the results...


fim

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

(montgomery burns) eeexcellent

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

if they are weak tight why don't you just bet 300 and if they come over the top then credit them for a big hand and chuck it. it seems like several people advocate going bonkos with this hand... vs weak tight players you have a lot of room to play this well. push the flop? wtf is that. bet enough so that you have to call an allin? huh??

these guys arent going to try to bluff you, so just bet 300 and hope that he called pf with set intentions and will just let you have it, and maybe he will get cute if he hit and just call on the flop.

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

why should we try to price ourselves out on one of the best flops for our steal hand?

this defeats the entire purpose of the steal and, more importantly, will make your blind steals in the future almost impossible against these players

how nitty is this bet fold line

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just asking what your move would be if a 5s or Ten of spades comes on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

you get to find that out (real turn was 5s) when i post my thoughts and the results...


fim

[/ QUOTE ]
If you have any money left, which I'm guessing you do, I sure as hell hope it went into the pot on the 5s turn.

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

My first instinct was that this is a perfect spot to check riase allin. I might not be able to do this play becuase it isnt a normal play for me and would look bizarre, but if Fim ever does this with a made hand and opponents have seen that, then this is the perfect opportunity to do it.

Going allin will not work if villan has AA KK or QQ. I think he would insta call any of those hands. Obviously he has a bigger hand range than that, but if Fim checks, hes betting to protect those hands and when the CR comes, he may let go of the AA KK for the extra 1000.

By betting out, those hands just wont fold (neither will AQ, but AK and mayyyybe JJ) and then you need to make your hand. I feel check raising gives the best fold equity in this spot and will get your monsters paid off should he call the allin CR

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

Haven't read the posts. I bet 300, everyone is playing so weak anyway. EMP has to have AA/KK/QQ to call you, when you reraise preflop you will take the pot down like 90% of the time when you pot the flop. I've started doing this a lot more frequently when there is a lot of dead money. People just can't bring themselves to call. If for some reason you think you are going to get played back at if you have been running over the table or anything like that then I probably bet tiny so I can 3-bet if I think my folding equity is greater with this option. If he will bet small on the turn if you both go check cehck on the flop, then check the flop and move in on the turn, there are so many paths you can take. In short, most won't call without a lock, just use your stack.

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
some friends consider it a leak of mine sometimes, but i am firing off the second barrel on almost every turn. ace--push. spade--push. queen--push.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is a major leak that I have not fixed yet. If he calls the flop he is calling the turn. There will be 400+ 300 bet +300 call on the flop. He is not laying down. For me, and my image, this is a -ev play everytime I make it. i still haven't learned.

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
Haven't read the posts. I bet 300, everyone is playing so weak anyway. EMP has to have AA/KK/QQ to call you, when you reraise preflop you will take the pot down like 90% of the time when you pot the flop. I've started doing this a lot more frequently when there is a lot of dead money. People just can't bring themselves to call. If for some reason you think you are going to get played back at if you have been running over the table or anything like that then I probably bet tiny so I can 3-bet if I think my folding equity is greater with this option. If he will bet small on the turn if you both go check cehck on the flop, then check the flop and move in on the turn, there are so many paths you can take. In short, most won't call without a lock, just use your stack.

[/ QUOTE ]


AZK this makes no sense. You think, (as do I) that he will have AA-QQ here most of the time. If this is true, leading the flop makes no sense because there is no way hell fold QQ or AA. He would need to have specifically KK to fold on the flop, and even then he might call. So the most successful way to have him fold AA or KK is to check raise the flop allin

Re: maybe interesting steal gone somewhat wrong 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
AZK this makes no sense. You think, (as do I) that he will have AA-QQ here most of the time. If this is true, leading the flop makes no sense because there is no way hell fold QQ or AA. He would need to have specifically KK to fold on the flop, and even then he might call. So the most successful way to have him fold AA or KK is to check raise the flop allin

[/ QUOTE ]

Not what I meant, I meant that he will only call you if he does in fact have one of these hands. Everything else will fold, since he doesn't necessarily have one of these hands, it's very profitable to bet so you can take down a nice sized pot with 8 high.