Its Good to be the Blind
 

This is a hand from my session tonight. Is it too aggressive?, not aggressive enough? I'm not entirely convinced I like my river play yet, so I'll leave the options out there as to what to do and what I did. I have no reads on any of the opponents and the table has been pretty typical.
Party Poker .50/1 (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, SB calls, Hero checks.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, SB calls.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, SB calls.

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero ........


Joe

Re: Its Good to be the Blind
 

Flop bet is OK 3 way IMO, I probably check fold the turn readless. I check the river.

Re: Its Good to be the Blind
 

[ QUOTE ]
I probably check fold the turn readless. I check the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious, but what do you put UTG on? SB can have absolutely anything, but UTG is interesting here. I think puting him on a hand here helps you play out the rest of the hand.

Joe

Re: Its Good to be the Blind
 

[ QUOTE ]
Flop bet is OK 3 way IMO, I probably check fold the turn readless. I check the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

We've got a good chance of being best here; I wouldn't be surprised at all if they flipped an ace apiece. I don't want to give a free card with such a vulnerable hand; I'd bet the turn and try to check behind on the river.

Re: Its Good to be the Blind
 

I would check the river. You will not make a better hand fold, you have the opportunity to get to the river cheaply, and you may induce a bluff. If I check, the UTG bets, and the SB calls, I fold, as one of them has you beat. If the UTG bets, the SB folds, I call, as he may have something like AK. I'd put the SB on a club draw, or maybe some sort of straight draw, and the UTG on overcards.

Re: Its Good to be the Blind
 

Ok, I'm gonna add a little more about my line of thinking here.

In these loose/passive games, most players will play any Ax, and will call any gutshot; for the most part.

Since I don't have any reads on these players, I assume 2 things after this flop.
1. They like their rag A, but they REALLY don't like it that much.
2. They have at least some type of flush/straight draw.

The 8 on the turn is truly a brick. The 8 only helps if they had 76 or A8, and the 76 is very unlikely, because I would have heard by now.

In the river, since it is a non-club Q, this looked like a semi-brick to me. One of them could easily have Qx [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], but since the only player who voluntarily put money into the pot is UTG, I put him on a rag A.

Now what do we do in the river with this type of thinking?

Joe

Re: Its Good to be the Blind
 

how aggressive are SB/UTG? the reason i ask is if you check, yes you're inciting bluffs, but if it is 2 back to you, you could very well be folding the best hand (if you decide to fold).

so based on that is how i'd make my decision, and w/o that, i don't know if i could make the best decision here. but i like check/calling to be honest.

Re: Its Good to be the Blind
 

[ QUOTE ]
how aggressive are SB/UTG? the reason i ask is if you check, yes you're inciting bluffs, but if it is 2 back to you, you could very well be folding the best hand (if you decide to fold).

[/ QUOTE ]

These players haven't read my thread about not wanting overcalls. I doubt hero is folding the best hand if it's 2bets back on the river.

Re: Its Good to be the Blind
 

[ QUOTE ]
These players haven't read my thread about not wanting overcalls. I doubt hero is folding the best hand if it's 2bets back on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

hahah! that's true. since i have, i have been tainted in my advice [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Its Good to be the Blind
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I'm gonna add a little more about my line of thinking here.

In these loose/passive games, most players will play any Ax, and will call any gutshot; for the most part.

Since I don't have any reads on these players, I assume 2 things after this flop.
1. They like their rag A, but they REALLY don't like it that much.
2. They have at least some type of flush/straight draw.

The 8 on the turn is truly a brick. The 8 only helps if they had 76 or A8, and the 76 is very unlikely, because I would have heard by now.

In the river, since it is a non-club Q, this looked like a semi-brick to me. One of them could easily have Qx [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], but since the only player who voluntarily put money into the pot is UTG, I put him on a rag A.

Now what do we do in the river with this type of thinking?

Joe

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think they will call with their UI Ace high? If so, bet and take their free money, since they don't seem to like it. But, against any reasonable player, I check and call, but not overcall.

Re: Its Good to be the Blind
 

[ QUOTE ]
how aggressive are SB/UTG? the reason i ask is if you check, yes you're inciting bluffs, but if it is 2 back to you, you could very well be folding the best hand (if you decide to fold).

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't have a read on them, I think this was my second orbit around. I usually assume the old "loose/passive" and adjust accordingly. They weren't frisky at all up to this point.

Joe

Re: Its Good to be the Blind
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think they will call with their UI Ace high?

[/ QUOTE ]

Believe it or not, they will call with their K high in these games! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Joe

Results
 

I'll post the results.

I bet the river and they folded.

I've been making this bet in the river more frequently it seems, thinking they have busted draws. Guess I was right this time. I posted this hand because I was wondering if anyone else was betting the river in these spots.

IMO, this was a value bet, but an EXTREMELY THIN value bet. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Thanks to everyone for the responses.

Joe

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll post the results.

I bet the river and they folded.

I've been making this bet in the river more frequently it seems, thinking they have busted draws. Guess I was right this time. I posted this hand because I was wondering if anyone else was betting the river in these spots.

IMO, this was a value bet, but an EXTREMELY THIN value bet. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Thanks to everyone for the responses.

Joe

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting to make busted draws fold is idiotic. You are beating busted draws anyway. If you want to bet to make people fold, you want higher pairs to fold, not busted draws.

Conversely, you want busted draws to bet as a bluff, so I still think checking was the correct play.

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
Betting to make busted draws fold is idiotic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm actually not betting to make them fold, I'm betting because I think there's a chance they might actually call.

I've noticed that many people will call the river on a board like this with A high. I've even bet A high in the river and been called by K high or less in some instances. Many people will call "just to see what I have".

I was just curious to see if anyone else had done this in the past. I agree that my 4th pair is not the best of hands, and a free showdown would be great. I also agree that it is very unlikely that anyone will fold a Q or an 8 in this spot. My point was that many players at these limits will call with A high, thus I get to extract 1 more BB from them.

Joe