Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

I'm a fan of Phil Hellmuth first of all. I've been thinking about Phil's win in the NBC Heads-up Championship. Lets remember that Phil Hellmuth has been playing since like 1990 or something. A long time. Nothing a poker player does should shock him, then yet he always seems absolutely amazed at the hands that his opponents hold. He seemed stunned when Chris Ferguson put all his money in with top two pair 92. Ok, so lets discuss that one hand where he was up against Chris Ferguson in the 3rd round. Score is 1 to 1. Both have taken a round. Phil has TT and he hits a set on a board that looks like this:

X A K T J .

4 to a straight on the board. Not sure who was first to act but Chris bets $30,000 . Phil seems to have a huge problem and ends up laying it down. Commentators are shocked and I'm shocked. Today, it popped into my mind again. This was the first hand of Round 3. Do you think Phil was setting Chris up ? Pot wasn't that big and this hand was not going to be a deciding hand in who won so Phil folds and shows it making it seem like he can be run over. So he gets run over a little bit and then catches Chris bluffing. I believe he got all his money in with A4 vs ?? . He was 60/40 and then he mounts his comeback but I don't think Phil was down by much at that point anyway. Do you think Phil was being clever or was he that unbelievably weak tight ?

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

Not viewing it, it doesn't look like that bad of a fold. Consider the Jesus hand against Friedman when he had quads and bet in a similar fashion, giving his opponent opportunities to make mistakes by calling against his powerhouse hand.

All Jesus needs is a queen to be well ahead. Hellmuth can't be sure he is ahead and will expect a bigger bet into him on the river. He is avoiding traps.

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

He probably makes too many laydowns, but how can we mere mortals criticize one of the best No Limit Hold Em tourney players ever to have played?

On the broadcast of the WSOP ME FT he talked a fair amount about how he shows the big laydowns to induce the bluffs. It seems to work for him.

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

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He probably makes too many laydowns, but how can we mere mortals criticize one of the best No Limit Hold Em tourney players ever to have played?

On the broadcast of the WSOP ME FT he talked a fair amount about how he shows the big laydowns to induce the bluffs. It seems to work for him.

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The truth is he makes the laydowns because he has the weak tightness. He says he shows them so he can catch people bluffing, this is because he doesn't want people bluffing his weak tight ass.

Mack

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

drew, He WAS on the river when facing the $30,000 bet. It was the first hand and you start with about 650,000 chips so my god , this was EXTREMELY weak tight to lay down that hand to 30,000.

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

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drew, He WAS on the river when facing the $30,000 bet. It was the first hand and you start with about 650,000 chips so my god , this was EXTREMELY weak tight to lay down that hand to 30,000.

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Not calling a value bet from a very calculating player with a potential 1 card straight that beats you. Is not EXTREMELY anything. Phil plays a lot by feel, 9 WSOP bracelts would say he's pretty good at it. If he felt he was beat, why throw good money after bad? I don't see how you can call that weak.

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

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drew, He WAS on the river when facing the $30,000 bet. It was the first hand and you start with about 650,000 chips so my god , this was EXTREMELY weak tight to lay down that hand to 30,000.

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What were the blinds, how big was the pot? Without knowing this, I cannot buy off on your conclusion. If they were playing 100/200 with a $5000 pot, this is a substantial bet and not an auto-call. If they were 5000/10000 blinds, obvious call regardless of pot size.

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

Don't mind me I'm just racking up nit points, but 92 is NEVER going to make top two pair.

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

Don't forget that Phils is the person with most Hold'em bracelets in the world. He will prolly be that for a while still, if ever beaten.

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

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Don't forget that Phils is the person with most Hold'em bracelets in the world. He will prolly be that for a while still, if ever beaten.

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True, but nobody cares.

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

92, ok, he had top and bottom pair. Geez. Excuse me. I use that term a lot and just used it without thinking.

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

It was one of the worst laydowns ever.

I truly don't understand it. But I'm not Hellmuth.

Pot odds dictated a call with low pair on that board.

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

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Don't forget that Phils is the person with most Hold'em bracelets in the world. He will prolly be that for a while still, if ever beaten.

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Yea, because he got his bracelets playing against 200 player fields, not 2000. He probably won't ever win another hold'em bracelet again.

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

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It was one of the worst laydowns ever.

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Tommy Reed what?

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

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Don't mind me I'm just racking up nit points, but 92 is NEVER going to make top two pair.

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You who need to scam people to get 3 bucks, and then loses it at 2c/4c in 1 hour is not entitled to any opinion.

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

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Don't forget that Phils is the person with most Hold'em bracelets in the world. He will prolly be that for a while still, if ever beaten.

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Yea, because he got his bracelets playing against 200 player fields, not 2000. He probably won't ever win another hold'em bracelet again.

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Some would argue winning 9 bracelets against 200 player top quality fields is more impressive than winning them in 2000 player fish-filled fields.

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

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Don't forget that Phils is the person with most Hold'em bracelets in the world. He will prolly be that for a while still, if ever beaten.

[/ QUOTE ] chan and brunson for the win with 10 peace

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

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Don't forget that Phils is the person with most Hold'em bracelets in the world. He will prolly be that for a while still, if ever beaten.

[/ QUOTE ] chan and brunson for the win with 10 peace

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Phil still has the most hold'em bracelets. Some of Brunson's and Chan's came in other events.

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

I enyoy watching Phil on TV, but mainly like watching an accident you drive past. But who knows how much editing really goes into portraying a different personality on TV than in real life.

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

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Don't forget that Phils is the person with most Hold'em bracelets in the world. He will prolly be that for a while still, if ever beaten.

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True, but nobody cares.

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Phil does.

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

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I enyoy watching Phil on TV, but mainly like watching an accident you drive past. But who knows how much editing really goes into portraying a different personality on TV than in real life.

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I don't think they need to edit much...

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

He needs a new website designer either way.

link

If i had a site about me where my head covered up half my first name, id be a bit peeved with the monkey who made it.

Phill

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

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Don't forget that Phils is the person with most Hold'em bracelets in the world. He will prolly be that for a while still, if ever beaten.

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Yea, because he got his bracelets playing against 200 player fields, not 2000. He probably won't ever win another hold'em bracelet again.

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Some would argue winning 9 bracelets against 200 player top quality fields is more impressive than winning them in 2000 player fish-filled fields.

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Who on earth would think that other than Phil????

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

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Phil Hellmuth has been playing since like 1990 or something

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Considering the he won the WSOP in 1989, I think he started playing poker before that. (Sorry just racking up nit points too).

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

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How would you know the pot odds when the amount in the pot wasn't even revealed by the announcers?

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Uhh, because I used the amazing ability to add in my head the size of the pot by hearing what was bet on each street???

Come on Daniel... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

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Don't forget that Phils is the person with most Hold'em bracelets in the world. He will prolly be that for a while still, if ever beaten.

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True, but nobody cares.

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Why did you even read the thread if you didn't care?

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

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Why did you even read the thread if you didn't care?

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Ppl that respond to things and then say they don't care about them must be the most self-deceptive and/or semantically-challenged people in the world.

Since I'm a fan of irony, I always appreciate them. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

I think Phil was playing weak-tight, like he likes to do sometimes.

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

I remember the hand well and it was an extremely weaktight fold. But he was on tilt here and this is how phil plays on tilt. Anyways, I have the episode D/L so I'll just post what happened.
Blinds 4-8k.

PH 10s10c limps in.
CF 8h6s checks.
Flop Ad Ks Jc
CF checks. PH quickly checks.
Turn 10h
CF bets 15k. PH calls rather quickly. (pot 46k)
River 7d
CF bets 30k. PH gives that disgusted look. He mumbles some inaudible words under his breath and folds them face up. 30k to win 76k where CF could be betting any pair/2pair. I dnk what the chip counts were but they were large compared to this. It was a fairly small pot.

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

While I can understand evaluating some TV hands played by Phil Hellmuth can be a point of discussing his play, the part of his game that he talks about the most is the ability to read his opponents.

This year in the main event, in a hand I am sure will make it to TV, he folded A-K on a flop A-A-X where he determined, correctly, that his opponent had a full house. He continuosly harasses his opponents for playing just about any hand against him and it is probably intimidating for any of the amateurs that run into him.

Phil Hellmuth has some great results in NLHE tourneys, but I do agree he is annoying to watch. Hes probably the only man in his mid 40s to act like that. However, his tactics seem to be effective and most of us would probably have a tough time playing through that constant harassment.

Re: Phil Hellmuth -- Genius or completely oblivious ?
 

Phil is a phenomenal player (as much as I'd love to hate him). He'll lay down hand after hand cause he knows that when it comes down to it, he'll take all your money on one hand...or so he says.