black Jacks
 

i get black jacks in a pretty good game.


2 limpers i raise in MP sb (seems pretty fishy but no real solid read-he called me down real light one time in the 10 hands ive been at the table) 3 bets.

both the bb and both limpers call i cap all call. i have no real read on limpers.

flop is all black 2tone Q43. checked to me i bet sb c'rs 1 limper Cold calls i call.

turn is another black card (making it two tone no flush possible) sb bets limper calls i call.

river is a blank non flush making card.

they both check i check.

comments on whole hand apreciated.

-Barron

Re: black Jacks
 

I like betting the river here, I think JJ has value. Why would sb check the river if he had a Q? I think you are up against AK and a busted flush, or maybe smaller pocket pair. Everything else is standard.

Re: black Jacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like betting the river here, I think JJ has value. Why would sb check the river if he had a Q? I think you are up against AK and a busted flush, or maybe smaller pocket pair. Everything else is standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you calling a checkraise?

Re: black Jacks
 

river bet pls. you can put mp on a draw and the river check by sb shows his hand is weak. more often a lesser pair like 88.

Re: black Jacks
 

Interesting hand. You're pretty much cockblocked on the flop and turn in terms of taking control of the pot.

The river - yeah you could bet the river but if the SB calls, the limper will raise or fold, probably fold, so it's you vs. the SB who is totally going to call. What is his range for 3betting - does it go down to 66? I think I would bet the river but it's close and I'd have to be there.

Re: black Jacks
 

dont cap pf. u r just tying yourself in for 1 more flop bet when you could be up against an overpair and youd like to see if an overcard comes. dump it on the turn. the chances that the pf raiser has an over pair coupled with teh chance that the limper has a Q and in calling down but is scared of an overpair make y a big enough dog to fold imo.

Re: black Jacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
dont cap pf. u r just tying yourself in for 1 more flop bet when you could be up against an overpair and youd like to see if an overcard comes. dump it on the turn. the chances that the pf raiser has an over pair coupled with teh chance that the limper has a Q and in calling down but is scared of an overpair make y a big enough dog to fold imo.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this line. You should not be capping here. A three bet out of the small blind shows alot of strength, you shouldnt even cap QQ here IMO. Once the flop comes its find to bet here when checked to, but once your checkraised you should either fold now, or make a lose call and fold the turn unimproved. Taking your hand to the river with this kind of action will cost you money in the long run. Also once you make it to the river, do not bet, its not worth it. If you win this hand I will be very surprised.

Re: black Jacks
 

I agree with your preflop cap. On average you are behind the SB here, but you are also way ahead of the limpers. I think the equity you gain from the limpers more than compensates what you lose to the small blind. If it had been heads up, I would think you should just call.

I agree with your flop play. You should bet to try to fold out players with one overcard, and you should call the raise because you might hit a jack and you might have the best hand.

The turn is close but I think you should call it. You don't have the odds to try to hit a jack, but there is also the chance you are ahead and for that reason it's a call.

The river is confusing. I would check behind like you did out of sheer confusion. I have no idea whether to expect to win or not.

Looking at the replies, I see some posters suggesting you fold the turn, and some posters suggesting you bet the river for value! One thing is for certain -- these opinions cannot both be right.

RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
dont cap pf. u r just tying yourself in for 1 more flop bet when you could be up against an overpair and youd like to see if an overcard comes. dump it on the turn. the chances that the pf raiser has an over pair coupled with teh chance that the limper has a Q and in calling down but is scared of an overpair make y a big enough dog to fold imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

my questions were

1) do i cap preflop?

2) release tot eh flop C'R and cold call?

3) call raise or fold ont he turn?

4) bet the river?

i was not happy w/ the line i took here, which is why i posted it.

after i checked behind on the river i was shown AK from the sb and 88 from the other guy and my jacks took it down UI.

-Barron

Re: black Jacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like betting the river here, I think JJ has value. Why would sb check the river if he had a Q? I think you are up against AK and a busted flush, or maybe smaller pocket pair. Everything else is standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you calling a checkraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am going to throw up in my mouth a little bit and call. Folding is probably the better play, but I'm just not that good.

Re: RESULTS
 

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dont cap pf. u r just tying yourself in for 1 more flop bet

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The pf cap is good. There are 3 other players in the hand besides Dcifr and sb! Whether 3 or 4 bets go in the pot will be large and you will feel "tied in" and draws will be correct to call, you can't keep the pot small now. Put in the extra raise for value.

[ QUOTE ]

my questions were

1) do i cap preflop?

2) release tot eh flop C'R and cold call?

3) call raise or fold ont he turn?

4) bet the river?



[/ QUOTE ]

1) yes, for the reasons I state above
2) call, the pot is large and AQ or QQ+ crs the turn
3) call, you can't call a reraise and smaller pocket may bluff at river.
4) bet when checked to, call 1 bet. The river check is the only mistake in the hand.

[ QUOTE ]

after i checked behind on the river i was shown AK from the sb and 88 from the other guy and my jacks took it down UI.


[/ QUOTE ]

If only I could play like I post...

Re: black Jacks
 

With no real read on any of the players, I would fold the turn.

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) yes, [cap] for the reasons I state above
2) call, the pot is large and AQ or QQ+ crs the turn
3) call, you can't call a reraise and smaller pocket may bluff at river.
4) bet when checked to, call 1 bet. The river check is the only mistake in the hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

Right on. Ignore all other posts in this thread, except this one.

JimmyV

Re: RESULTS
 

Couple questions:

First, I am trying to reconcile the PF cap with the passage in HEPFAP that says with a hand like JJ the worst possible scenario is to have it 3 or 4 handed. If that is true why do we want more $ going into the pot? I understand we have an equity edge, but isn't this hand very difficult to play when one or two overcards flop? Is it totally different because we have position?

Second, wouldn't releasing to the flop c/r and cc be out of the question since the pot is laying you 22:1, enough odds to draw to a set?

Re: black Jacks
 

To me this seems a real easy valuebet on the river. How can you put either one of the checkers on a queen or better? I probly like a fold on the flop, or at least turn, but this river seems a must-bet. But i suck, so who knows.

Re: black Jacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dont cap pf. u r just tying yourself in for 1 more flop bet when you could be up against an overpair and youd like to see if an overcard comes. dump it on the turn. the chances that the pf raiser has an over pair coupled with teh chance that the limper has a Q and in calling down but is scared of an overpair make y a big enough dog to fold imo.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this line. You should not be capping here. A three bet out of the small blind shows alot of strength, you shouldnt even cap QQ here IMO. Once the flop comes its find to bet here when checked to, but once your checkraised you should either fold now, or make a lose call and fold the turn unimproved. Taking your hand to the river with this kind of action will cost you money in the long run. Also once you make it to the river, do not bet, its not worth it. If you win this hand I will be very surprised.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wanted to respond to this before I read the results. I know i'm late to the party but I think the two previous posters are grossly overestimating what it takes to 3bet from the sb vs an LP raiser and 1 limper. I'm certainly 3betting 77+, AJs+, AQ+. The only hand that beats us is AQ, AA or KK or QQ, none of which check this river (unless the guy is really weak). I think a PF cap is questionable, only because it takes a little longer to sort out what everybody has (a cap really changes post flop action). Not capping with QQ in this spot is criminal, as is not betting this river, IMO. This is a value bet, and I don't think its close.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that not only are the SB's preflop standards being over-rated, so are his flop c/r standards. This is clearly a protection c/r, and with so many draws the limper could have almost anything. Most aggressive players would c/r that flop w/ AK, or a mid range PP. The c/r doesn't mean we're beat, not in the least, and the limper could just have easily have a draw.

I read in one of the responses that no reads equates to a fold on the turn. I think thats the strongest reason for calling. This is a pretty big pot, and its just too likely we're in front here.

Im gonna go read results now, sorry for being so late.

lf

Re: black Jacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with your preflop cap. On average you are behind the SB here, but you are also way ahead of the limpers. I think the equity you gain from the limpers more than compensates what you lose to the small blind. If it had been heads up, I would think you should just call.

I agree with your flop play. You should bet to try to fold out players with one overcard, and you should call the raise because you might hit a jack and you might have the best hand.

The turn is close but I think you should call it. You don't have the odds to try to hit a jack, but there is also the chance you are ahead and for that reason it's a call.

The river is confusing. I would check behind like you did out of sheer confusion. I have no idea whether to expect to win or not.

Looking at the replies, I see some posters suggesting you fold the turn, and some posters suggesting you bet the river for value! One thing is for certain -- these opinions cannot both be right.

[/ QUOTE ]
I see the results and you won, nice hand. But I will still stick to my guns here when I say that you should not cap this preflop and you should fold the turn unimproved. I understand that when taking my line you will never win pots like this. But I truly believe it is the correct line versus the typical opponent. By the way checkraising with AK in this spot is not typical in my opinion. Either way, I believe that if you folded the turn with your jacks in this situation you will save more bets, than you will win by taking it to the river and somehow winning once in a blue moon. No strategy is perfect, all you can do is play the percentages. I Believe you will make more money in the long run by folding this turn. One thing I am sure of if you never fold the best hand you are calling down too much.

Re: black Jacks
 

I think a river value bet is in order. The SB has no reason to believe that anyone will bet this hand for him. I don't see anyone checking AA, KK, and certainly not QQ. That means he has JJ or, more likely, TT.

The only question is whether or not the other guy has a queen. Getting better than even money and with plenty of draws for him to have, I think a bet has value.

Good luck.
Eric

Re: black Jacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you calling a (river) checkraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Check-raises are going to be extremely rare after this action. The SB cannot think someone else will bet the river after this action. This is even more true of the middle guy. He'll almost surely bet all his strong hands (AA-QQ) with two players in there to pay him off.

Go ahead and pay off a check-raise. You get called twice and win so often that your decision on handling the check-raise is irrelevent. Bet for value, handle the check-raise correctly to elevate your play to master-level.

Good luck.
Eric

Re: black Jacks
 

why are you 3 betting this light from the sb? i tend to be a bit rockish at times, and would not likely 3 bet here with any of the hands you mentioned. please explain why 3 betting here with these hands is good. thanks

Re: black Jacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
why are you 3 betting this light from the sb? i tend to be a bit rockish at times, and would not likely 3 bet here with any of the hands you mentioned. please explain why 3 betting here with these hands is good. thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

Barron's initial PFR doesn't translate directly to a lot of strength. There's 2 limpers, a lot of hands are worth a raise here. Not know the limpers if I have any of the hands I mentioned, I want to try and be heads up with Barron, as he may very well be raising lighter than usual. If I think there's any chance that even on of the limpers will fold, and especially if there's a chance that both of them will fold, i'm 3betting with any hand that has UI showdown value, including the ones I listed.

lf