Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

"If I am victorious in this war, I will be known as the greatest hero to have ever lived. And if I fail, I will be the most despised villian in all of history." (Not verbatim, from memory, taken from a passage from 'Inside the Third Reich by Albert Speer)


Had Hitler won the war would he have been seen as the greatest hero of all time? Keep in mind, that this assumes the next generations were given the proper "education" or indoctrination into the "The Fuhrer is good, the fuhrer is great, mantra." Which they almost certainly would have been.



If you choose no, I hope you will explain yourself. And you DO owe me an explanation, for I am your intellectual superior.

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

Depends what you mean by "war".
Had he won world war two, he would have been briefly hailed as a hero, until at some point, possibly after his death the empire/reich broke up (as did the soviet union), and he would likely still have been seen as a villian.
Stalin is not seen as a hero despite the soviet union being among the victors of WWII

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

Assume the Reich never breaks up. Assume it lasts as long as Hitler dreamed it would. Assume a world of the 'Thousand Year Reich.'

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

Assuming the reich maintains both its political cohesion and political direction (i.e. Hitler is not demonised by later 'nazi' leaders with their own agenda.) Then yes the political consensus would be that he is a hero.

The point being??

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming the reich maintains both its political cohesion and political direction (i.e. Hitler is not demonised by later 'nazi' leaders with their own agenda.) Then yes the political consensus would be that he is a hero.

The point being??

[/ QUOTE ]


I like how you put that. Yes, exactly, assuming all those things.

My point is that there is no objective good or evil. Assuming the following scenario we would live in a world where Jews are considered evil terrorists and those that slaughter them would be the hero's. Good and evil can only be viewed subjectively.


If this is true. Then how can there be a God that presides objectively over what is good and evil?

Anyone who votes 'Yes' admits that there is no God, whether they know it or not.

No need
 

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Assume the Reich never breaks up. Assume it lasts as long as Hitler dreamed it would. Assume a world of the 'Thousand Year Reich.'

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Then you are answering your own question! Stalin's "empire" collapsed less than forty years after his death. A thousand-year Reich means that almost certainly Hitler is a hero.



I answered Yes to your poll without assuming anything like what you posted above.

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

Also, anyone that votes YES is admiting that Hitler was indeed not evil. They are merely recognizing the fact that a different imprint was given for us to follow. That being the liberty, equal rights, democratic, imprint.

Had one been born into the Thousand Year Reich in say, the year 1984 [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] then one would be denouncing such things as evil and against God or whatever.



There is no good and evil. We are no more guilty than the animals. Everyone has known it since Darwin. But still, no one will admit it.

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

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I will be known as the greatest hero

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Being known a hero by political consensus does not somehow make a person good. If scientific concensus suggested as it possibly did at some stage that the earth is flat it does not mean that it was, nor does it provide support for scientific relativism in relation to the shape of the earth.

My point is that the example here does not appropriately address the issue of moral relativism you seek to explore.

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

It does in the same sense that people who think of GWB as a hero do not consider him to be evil. In fact, I am sure they think he is a good person.

Don't try to mesmerize me with your semantical gibberish, college boy.

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

It is not clear that had he won he would have been revered. I suppose it all depends on who you asked. Strictly in terms of population, there would have been far more "losers" had Hitler won than "winners."

Its hard to imagine any amount of foreign indoctrination convincing, say, Jews, Russians, Britons or Americans that Hitler was a hero.

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

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It is not clear that had he won he would have been revered. I suppose it all depends on who you asked. Strictly in terms of population, there would have been far more "losers" had Hitler won than "winners."

Its hard to imagine any amount of foreign indoctrination convincing, say, Jews, Russians, Britons or Americans that Hitler was a hero.

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No. There would never be a cohesive world view that Hitler was a hero in his lifetime but future generations indoctrinated into the Third Reich ideology would all agree that he was indeed a hero.

This is of course, if there is an actual garrisoned presence of SS in all the defeated countries (America, England, Russia.)

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

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Don't try to mesmerize me with your semantical gibberish, college boy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, was trying to be concise.
Let's simplify my point.

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I am sure they think he is a good person.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thinkin' so don't make it so.

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

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...but future generations indoctrinated into the Third Reich ideology would all agree that he was indeed a hero.

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Uh, no.

You don't have to look hard in this very country to find people who believe Abraham Lincoln was evil incarnate, despite a hundred years of positive reinforcement of his hero status. If you can't convince everyone of *his* glory, how in the world are you going to do it for a foreign conquerer?

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

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And you DO owe me an explanation, for I am your intellectual superior.

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Oh yeah? What about that time you almost had to miss the big game because you and the rest of the football team were failing history class and you got mad at Kelly Kapowski who was temporarily teaching for not letting you slide?

Sometimes I wonder where you would be today if Screech hadn't given you the answers...

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...but future generations indoctrinated into the Third Reich ideology would all agree that he was indeed a hero.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, no.

You don't have to look hard in this very country to find people who believe Abraham Lincoln was evil incarnate, despite a hundred years of positive reinforcement of his hero status. If you can't convince everyone of *his* glory, how in the world are you going to do it for a foreign conquerer?

[/ QUOTE ]


But the majority of the population believes "honest" Abe was a good guy for freeing the slaves. Of course there would be dissenters in the Thousand year Reich. That's what the SS is for, and all those dissenters (libertarians) would be viewed by the majority of the Reich population the way we view racist red-necks who hate Abe Lincoln cause he freed the slaves.

They would be objects of scorn.

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

Known as the greatest hero by whom? By his followers? Yes, of course. By anyone with a brain larger than a pea? Nope.

Do you really need further explanation regarding what constitutes a hero?

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

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But the majority of the population believes "honest" Abe was a good guy for freeing the slaves.

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That's an excellent example of how a majority of the population can be fooled even after so many years. The Emancipation Proclamation freed slaves in the rebelling states (over which Lincoln by definiton had no power) only; it did absolutely nothing for the slaves in the North.

Lincoln gets credit for freeing the slaves with the Emancipation Proclamation when all it was was straight political hedging. Brilliant hedging, but far from the superhuman nobility that people associate with it.

Of course, straight commonsense thinking will tell you that there's no way in hell a president is going to be able to upset a deep-seated economic institution singlehandedly, no matter how vile that institution (or how great that president) may be.

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

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Known as the greatest hero by whom? By his followers? Yes, of course. By anyone with a brain larger than a pea? Nope.

Do you really need further explanation regarding what constitutes a hero?

[/ QUOTE ]


So you're saying that a baby born into this Third reich and indoctrinated into National Socialist ideology from childhood on, would conclude that Hitler was not a hero in his adult life if he was possessed of great intelligence?

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

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[ QUOTE ]
But the majority of the population believes "honest" Abe was a good guy for freeing the slaves.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's an excellent example of how a majority of the population can be fooled even after so many years. The Emancipation Proclamation freed slaves in the rebelling states (over which Lincoln by definiton had no power) only; it did absolutely nothing for the slaves in the North.

Lincoln gets credit for freeing the slaves with the Emancipation Proclamation when all it was was straight political hedging. Brilliant hedging, but far from the superhuman nobility that people associate with it.

Of course, straight commonsense thinking will tell you that there's no way in hell a president is going to be able to upset a deep-seated economic institution singlehandedly, no matter how vile that institution (or how great that president) may be.

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My, my, aren't we pedantic? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

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My, my, aren't we pedantic?

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No, I don't think so - I think it was apropos your question, the point of which seemed to be about biases in how historical events are viewed from hindsight. Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation (popular perception versus reality) is a perfect example of this. Sure, it doesn't run the same ridiculously broad spectrum as the Hitler question, but I think it's more valuable, seeing as how history generally doesn't offer us controlled experiments for our perusal. If you don't believe it, ask yourself if Lincoln would still be seen as "The Great Emancipator" if the South had won the war and slavery still had been eventually abolished within a short period of time (as it almost certainly would have).

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

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My, my, aren't we pedantic?

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No, I don't think so - I think it was apropos your question, the point of which seemed to be about biases in how historical events are viewed from hindsight. Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation (popular perception versus reality) is a perfect example of this. Sure, it doesn't run the same ridiculously broad spectrum as the Hitler question, but I think it's more valuable, seeing as how history generally doesn't offer us controlled experiments for our perusal. If you don't believe it, ask yourself if Lincoln would still be seen as "The Great Emancipator" if the South had won the war and slavery still had been eventually abolished within a short period of time (as it almost certainly would have).

[/ QUOTE ]


I was All Valley wrestling champion back in high school.

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

[ QUOTE ]

I was All Valley wrestling champion back in high school.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hell yeah - I remember when you whooped up on Marvin Neidick and Zack won the dirtbike in a bet on the match.

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming the reich maintains both its political cohesion and political direction (i.e. Hitler is not demonised by later 'nazi' leaders with their own agenda.) Then yes the political consensus would be that he is a hero.

The point being??

[/ QUOTE ]


I like how you put that. Yes, exactly, assuming all those things.

My point is that there is no objective good or evil. Assuming the following scenario we would live in a world where Jews are considered evil terrorists and those that slaughter them would be the hero's. Good and evil can only be viewed subjectively.


If this is true. Then how can there be a God that presides objectively over what is good and evil?

Anyone who votes 'Yes' admits that there is no God, whether they know it or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have proved that homosapians have subjective morality. You have not proved that there is no objective right or wrong.

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

I voted no, but it depends on how you define winning the war. I say that Hitler would have won the war if he had controlled all of Europe (there was almost no chance that he could successfully invade the USA). In that instance, there would still have been people that would have prevented the "indoctrination" that would be neccessary for Hitler to be known as the greatest hero that ever lived.

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

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I voted no, but it depends on how you define winning the war. I say that Hitler would have won the war if he had controlled all of Europe (there was almost no chance that he could successfully invade the USA). In that instance, there would still have been people that would have prevented the "indoctrination" that would be neccessary for Hitler to be known as the greatest hero that ever lived.

[/ QUOTE ]


Had Hitler conquered Europe (by not dividing his forces towards Moscow, Leningrad, and Stalingrad and provided winter clothing for troops and allowing his army to go on the defensive during the Russian winter and somehow managed to defeat the British Air force and carrying out a seaborne assault of England) then the Germans would have eventually conquered America. Maybe not in his lifetime, but the territorial gain combined by the increase in industry and the militant mindset of the German peoples, then America may have ended up being conquered in the 50's or the 60's (If the first scenarios occured the German's would have acquired the atomic bomb before the U.S. did.)

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

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It does in the same sense that people who think of GWB as a hero do not consider him to be evil. In fact, I am sure they think he is a good person.


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Why are you being so close-minded? This has nothing to do with malorum's point. I believe he was using the example of the earth being considred flat at one time to prove that not everything is always as it seems. Just because an era of people believe certain things to be correct at the time does not mean that is generally a good thing. A basic example would be slavery in America or even Hitler and the masses behind him.

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Don't try to mesmerize me with your semantical gibberish, college boy.

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Is that necessary? If you want an unbiased discussion on this topic (which happens to be your own), don't criticize the open-minded.

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

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It does in the same sense that people who think of GWB as a hero do not consider him to be evil. In fact, I am sure they think he is a good person.


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Why are you being so close-minded? This has nothing to do with malorum's point. I believe he was using the example of the earth being considred flat at one time to prove that not everything is always as it seems. Just because an era of people believe certain things to be correct at the time does not mean that is generally a good thing. A basic example would be slavery in America or even Hitler and the masses behind him.

[ QUOTE ]
Don't try to mesmerize me with your semantical gibberish, college boy.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is that necessary? If you want an unbiased discussion on this topic (which happens to be your own), don't criticize the open-minded.

[/ QUOTE ]



You dare challenge your intellectual better!

Nein!!

Ich Bin Flagenheinem!!!

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming the reich maintains both its political cohesion and political direction (i.e. Hitler is not demonised by later 'nazi' leaders with their own agenda.) Then yes the political consensus would be that he is a hero.

The point being??

[/ QUOTE ]


I like how you put that. Yes, exactly, assuming all those things.

My point is that there is no objective good or evil. Assuming the following scenario we would live in a world where Jews are considered evil terrorists and those that slaughter them would be the hero's. Good and evil can only be viewed subjectively.


If this is true. Then how can there be a God that presides objectively over what is good and evil?

Anyone who votes 'Yes' admits that there is no God, whether they know it or not.

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This is ridiculous. There is a very simple belief that circumvents this chain of logic, and that is the belief in man's imperfection in analyzing his world and God's place in it.

And you are playing loose and fast with your previous argument, that good and evil can only be argued subjectively. Because even if the majority of people form their beliefs on the basis of history written by the winners, this doesn't necessitate that good and evil are arbitrary - merely that the way each is perceived is due to, again, humanity's flaws.

By the way, I think even if Hitler had won the war, history would recall him as evil. Because truly totalitarian regimes are almost essentially cannibalistic, decimating their own resources and population. They are too unstable to survive and be remembered fondly.

NT

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

"By the way, I think even if Hitler had won the war, history would recall him as evil. Because truly totalitarian regimes are almost essentially cannibalistic, decimating their own resources and population. They are too unstable to survive and be remembered fondly."



I agree. This is almost a pure hypothetical scenario. But it basically falls in line with the Orwellian theory that man is infinitely malleable and is a blank canvas in which anything can be imprinted upon it.


The most horrid conditions of living can be seen as acceptable and even revered if give enough time and reinforcing social consensus.

Monkey see. Monkey do.

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

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Stalin is not seen as a hero despite the soviet union being among the victors of WWII

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I believe Stalin is very well liked in the Soviet Union. In fact, I think his popularity has grown since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

You're right, Dynasty.

In fact, I think they lovingly refer to him as "Uncle Joe."

(Seriously, this is what they call him.)

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

Please go on further with your hypothesis. What makes you so certain this "take-over" would occur during that time period? Is it because America's hands would be full with the red army during the 60's or what?
Please explain your intellectual brilliance.

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

[ QUOTE ]
Please go on further with your hypothesis. What makes you so certain this "take-over" would occur during that time period? Is it because America's hands would be full with the red army during the 60's or what?
Please explain your intellectual brilliance.

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No. There would be no red army in this other "dimension." They would have been defeated by the Nazi's, remember?


The invasion would be staged from England and Iceland and Greenland. Maybe a few atomic bombs would be dropped on the major east coast cities to "soften up" the land invasion.

You must realize that had Germany conquered Russia and the rest of Europe that their industrial/manpower/resources would be greater than that of America's. In this case all that would be required is a building up of superior forces. Remeber that the German's had missiles way before the U.S did (V1 and V2 bombs.) Had this scenario occured German technology would have far surpassed that of America's.

Plus, America would have been the sole remaining power, plus Germany would have had the Japanese as allies to attack on America's western front/coast.

Facing a two front war American would be destroyed (As the two front war destroyed the Germans in WW1 and WW2 and Napolean in the war of 1812 and every other nation in history that had to fight on two fronts at once.)


Also, I never said the 60's I said the 50's or 60's. Hell, it might have even been finished by the late 40's, but I feel they would need time to build up a overwhelmingly superior naval force to ensure the land invasion's success.

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

the winner writes the history books. i still voted no.......

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

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the winner writes the history books. i still voted no.......

[/ QUOTE ]


But yet you admit that I am your intellectual superior, right?

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

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the winner writes the history books. i still voted no.......

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But yet you admit that I am your intellectual superior, right?

[/ QUOTE ]


ummm.....wrong character....

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

Ok, I see your point. If Russia had been taken over, there would be too much for America to handle. The Japs on the left and Germany/Russia on the right would cause overwhelming stress on our nation's military power.
Do you think, however, that the next stage for America would be to call upon her allies as well?

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I see your point. If Russia had been taken over, there would be too much for America to handle. The Japs on the left and Germany/Russia on the right would cause overwhelming stress on our nation's military power.
Do you think, however, that the next stage for America would be to call upon her allies as well?

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The only remaining ally of America's would have been Canada.

In fact, Canada would probably have been invaded first via Greenland.

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

unless he took over the entire world, history is documented and spread well enough for him to still seem like a maniac to most of the world.

Re: Was Hitler right when he said.........
 

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If you choose no, I hope you will explain yourself. And you DO owe me an explanation, for I am your intellectual superior.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't owe you an explanation for that or any other reason,
real or contrived.

Given that there are many people arguing that Hitler is not
or should not be the most despised, you have no basic
argument. Reference at least one post regarding Stalin
on this forum. There are other obvious examples, I am
sure.