this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

cutoff poster is unknown.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $15.
UTG calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO (poster) raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8.66 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG folds, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (6.33 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO calls.

River: (12.33 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.33 BB

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

i can't figure out why that flop play is correct. i fold obviously.

other than that looks fine.

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

you are a total savage.
turn/river look good, preflop/flop makes me nervous.

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
you are a total savage.
turn/river look good, preflop/flop makes me nervous.

[/ QUOTE ]

pre-flop?

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you are a total savage.
turn/river look good, preflop/flop makes me nervous.

[/ QUOTE ]

pre-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]id fold.
QTo=not good limit texas holdem hand.
UTG=not good limit texas holdem position.

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

It's usually insane not to fold on the flop.

~ Rick

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you are a total savage.
turn/river look good, preflop/flop makes me nervous.

[/ QUOTE ]

pre-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]id fold.
QTo=not good limit texas holdem hand.
UTG=not good limit texas holdem position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is folding QTo in the BB for 1 bet standard? I never even consider making this fold with the poster raising. If it was rock of gibraltar UTG raise, sure.

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you are a total savage.
turn/river look good, preflop/flop makes me nervous.

[/ QUOTE ]

pre-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]id fold.
QTo=not good limit texas holdem hand.
UTG=not good limit texas holdem position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is folding QTo in the BB for 1 bet standard? I never even consider making this fold with the poster raising. If it was rock of gibraltar UTG raise, sure.

[/ QUOTE ]well, it sure as hell doesnt seem like slamdunk either way, so i wouldnt sweat it...

what i was thinking on the flop
 

"i can't figure out why that flop play is correct. i fold obviously."

poster doesnt need to have a hand, they seem to raise all the time when they post even when there's limpers. i can c/r and get the field out and have a shot at a pot that's getting pretty big. also clean up outs in case i need my overcards, backdoor flush.

so no it's not obviously a fold. that doesnt mean i played it the best way, but there are good reasons to make the play i did.

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you are a total savage.
turn/river look good, preflop/flop makes me nervous.

[/ QUOTE ]

pre-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]FWIW, when i play QT OOP against a large field the following usually happens...
i flop top pair and end up putting in the fourth or fifth bet on the flop... then i bet the turn and river and some guy calls me down and shows me the best hand... after that i curse under my breath.

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
If it was rock of gibraltar UTG raise, sure.

[/ QUOTE ]
Great phrase - I used to use "rock of gibraltar" all the time and then I thought I misremembered because I knew there was a straight of Gibraltar and maybe I mistakenly inserted the rock. But I just googled it and of course there's a rock of gibraltar. I think I'll start using it again with deference to you.

As to Q10o, I think either folding or calling preflop is pretty close to break-even.

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's usually insane not to fold on the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah I think I agree mike. These sorts of plays don't seem to inately illicit helpful responses. It depends on your image at the time. For instance, it might be helpful for you to add "I've check-raise bluffed 3 times in the last 20 minutes previous to this hand" or "I've only shown down monsters and people are starting to not pay me off"

In isolation, this flop play is just dumb online.

Hey Rick, I figured you weren't in your 20's but is that a self-portrait? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

"For instance, it might be helpful for you to add "I've check-raise bluffed 3 times in the last 20 minutes previous to this hand" or "I've only shown down monsters and people are starting to not pay me off""

ok here does this help:

"it's online so no one is paying any attention anyway. theyre all watching price is right or jerking it or surfing oot."

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

I agree with most that the flop is bad if done frequently. I do not mind making a play now and then though so.....whatever.

River is good. I probably would not three bet this turn, but I understand the play. I would be nervous about a better 10 here or overpair. 2 bets on the turn seems right, then maybe donk bet a non club river.

So I would be a little less aggressive on the turn, which I find funny since my post flop aggression numbers have been referenced on this board as very aggressive.

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

[ QUOTE ]

So I would be a little less aggressive on the turn, which I find funny since my post flop aggression numbers have been referenced on this board as very aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny weird or funny ha ha?

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So I would be a little less aggressive on the turn, which I find funny since my post flop aggression numbers have been referenced on this board as very aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny weird or funny ha ha?

[/ QUOTE ]

The former I suppose.

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

It looks like the perfect situation to use this flop play.
You want to clean up outs and since u r BB you can easily hold a suited 6 or 7 together with ace or as a sc.

Opponent is probably on overcards and can be moved off the pot.
I'd not 3 bet turn though after his raise.
I really want to see a showdown so a cap would be real bad.
If he puts you on a steal he might try to resteal with overs so I want a showdown that is not too costly.
I'd donk river.

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
I figured you weren't in your 20's but is that a self-portrait? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, although I used to have a picture up on Dick in Phoenix's web site cut from Mike Caro's Tells video tapes. I was in two or three scenes, done about ten years ago. It used to appear on Google, but doesn't anymore.

Anyway, I'm 51 and most people think I look a bit younger. That said, I'n starting to think people in their 50's or older now make up only about 1% of this forum.

The avatar is Confererate General James Longstreet. I'm a Yankee but after reading a lot of Civil War material in the last few years I've come to like Longstreet. He was the first general who understood the value of good defense (look up Frederickburg) with the new long range rifles and one who avoided senseless slaughter of his men in other battles. He got a bad rap at Gettysburg (my understanding is he opposed Pickett's charge).

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok here does this help:

"it's online so no one is paying any attention anyway. theyre all watching price is right or jerking it or surfing oot."

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying it's dumb. I'm saying in isolation it's dumb.

You're smart so you can adjust to your image if your hand gets shown down. Others don't adjust. Making your opponents more difficult to beat is not wise. On average on any given hand, you won't make a hand-- and if you increase your opponents calling frequency then they're harder to beat. If you don't play against these Bob Barkers very often or you if think they don't keep stats on you well then cheers. Because you may not lose enough EV for the rest of the session to offset the pot you win - but that's only if you win the pot.

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

i like the flop cr and i do it routinely in blind defense situations. mebbe is a bad plays and i do suck in the blinds. it seems good bc the pf raiser does not have to have a hand and usually doesnt and it lets him know that are gonna be cr his continuation bets.

i would call down on the turn tho.

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

mike,

let me take a shot. i think the limit is too low for you [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

- Kenny

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

If you happen to look anything like Mike Caro then Longstreet is probably a better choice than a self-portrait. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

first off i like the way you write. secondly im still not quite sure what youre saying. if hold em is about making good decisions re: the odds we're offered implied and from the pot i think the flop c/r here is the right play. maybe if an ace peels on the turn ill check fold there.

anyway what you wanted me to say was this i think: ive been playing tight and nice and taking no part in any of these sorts of checkraise shenanigans. but poster wouldnt know that unless he has PV or PT or PZZ or whatever we're calling it these days because he just sat down. plus he is jerking it to price is right im pretty certain of that.

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

are you in that video? i think i threw my copy away the last time i quit poker. darn.

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
"For instance, it might be helpful for you to add "I've check-raise bluffed 3 times in the last 20 minutes previous to this hand" or "I've only shown down monsters and people are starting to not pay me off""

ok here does this help:

"it's online so no one is paying any attention anyway. theyre all watching price is right or jerking it or surfing oot."

[/ QUOTE ]

hahahahaha [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

You're getting ~ 4.33:1 if I counted right on your flop raise. You've got a BB special flop that you check-raised in a 3 handed pot. This looks like a semi-bluff or a 6/7, or mid-pair but not a monster. Is the cr in and of itself going to take the pot right there often enough to be +EV? No way. Cutoff definitely, and maybe MP is taking one off.

From there you have to hope
1) Cutoff doesn't have a hand
2) Cutoff won't call with Ace high
3) Cutoff doesn't hit his/her hand on the turn
4) You both don't hit your hand on the turn because he's probably got you outkicked

Now none of this is out of the realm of possibility - he could take one off on the flop and fold the turn. If Scotty beams you into MP's position on the flop then the cr has greater validity (though you're not limping with Q10o in MP). I think the biggie is people/Cutoff like to call down with Ace high in this spot unless the board gets scary.
___________
The second issue is people glance away from the porn to check out river hands and if you show down Q10 you have made life more difficult for yourself this session (and other sessions vs. the notetakers/dataminers at the table).
Which is fine as long as you adjust but in general....and what I was trying to say in my previous post....these plays dilute the effectiveness of your future raises/check-raises by increasing the frequency with which your opponents call. Most of my wins come from having a strong image. And if I do have a strong image then I'll attempt some of these plays. But even then, I'll do it mostly with semi-bluffs not bluffs.

But you know all this. And you probably adapt after a hand like this gets shown down. But that's why I mentioned we can only offer valuable input on these types of hands if we know your current image.
______________

And it's not our responsiblity to coddle beginning to average players because this is mid-high but those types of players will get eaten alive trying this play.

Also
 

[ QUOTE ]
but poster wouldnt know that unless he has PV or PT or PZZ or whatever we're calling it these days because he just sat down.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know if you're being tongue in cheek but in case you're not...
PV and PT are different software. And both are valuable. I rely on it much less than most people who use it. If I've played 5 hands with someone then I'll rely more on his current image, my current image, position, and board texture than the numbers. But it's really valuable for those first few hands against unknown opponents, especially those with extreme numbers.

So if you don't have it, I would suggest you get it.

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
are you in that video? i think i threw my copy away the last time i quit poker. darn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. I was in a few scenes as a spectator and the lead in two scenes where I used two methods to get chips (frantically waving bills for a reload and silently trying a purchase extra without anyone seeing). One was supposed to mean loose/aggro and one was indicative of a tight shy nit or something like that.

I had to be acting because I've never been all in in a limit game and rarely used the chip runners back then for my initial load (now I do). [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

~ Rick

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

it's a 4 way pot not 3 way.

"these plays dilute the effectiveness of your future raises/check-raises by increasing the frequency with which your opponents call. Most of my wins come from having a strong image. And if I do have a strong image then I'll attempt some of these plays. But even then, I'll do it mostly with semi-bluffs not bluffs."

you contradicted yourself there. and youre not recognizing that this flop play here is a semibluff. maybe it's heavier on the bluff more like a semiBLUFF. anyway that's what it is.

youre right image does matter some, just not as much as in live play. i mean i get people calling me down with 55 and A4 on a KQxxx board after ive played no hands for 4 rounds.
i mean if theyre going to do that than theyre going to do that, image be damned.

Re: Also
 

i have it. i wouldnt play without it.

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

I have no idea why everyone is saying you need to fold on the flop. if you had QK everyone would say call, against a CO poster with an insane range of hands calling with 2 overs is exactly the same idea.

However what I don't understand is the turn 3-bet. After you get raised on the turn, I would just showdown. The possibility of you being way ahead is now significantly lower. Calling your flop raise and raising you on the turn is not weakness. You dont know if he is a maniac and doing this w/T9,JT, AK,67,A7, etc and your position is precarious at best.

So the turn 3-bet is a bit spewy, but otherwise goot. Also given his river bet, I don't think he was pumping overs so hopefully he had JT and not 9T.

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
it's a 4 way pot not 3 way.

[/ QUOTE ]
Post-flop it's pretty much 3 way. UTG check folded.

[ QUOTE ]
"these plays dilute the effectiveness of your future raises/check-raises by increasing the frequency with which your opponents call. Most of my wins come from having a strong image. And if I do have a strong image then I'll attempt some of these plays. But even then, I'll do it mostly with semi-bluffs not bluffs."

you contradicted yourself there.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm guessing you think I meant that future "made-hand" raises will be called more often. Yes, that's true. But my point was that you miss more often than not so when you raise/check-raise with a non-made hand, it's obviously better if your opponents call you less.

[ QUOTE ]
and youre not recognizing that this flop play here is a semibluff.

[/ QUOTE ]
enh. maybe. sure you are drawing to a pair but if that's true then there really is no distinction between a bluff and a semi-bluff.

[ QUOTE ]
i mean i get people calling me down with 55 and A4 on a KQxxx board after ive played no hands for 4 rounds

[/ QUOTE ]
And when you've got the goods those times, then it's sweet.

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

"Post-flop it's pretty much 3 way. UTG check folded."

no check the hand again. you got the action wrong.

"it's obviously better if your opponents call you less."

right. but you said if your image is good than you make plays like this. that's what i was doing. but then you say dont make them or it may ruin your image.

anyway semantics. it sounds like neither of us have anything to teach the other on this. ive been over all this stuff a million times and my judgement this time said to make the flop c/r w/ my overcards, a play i dont make too often.

result
 

to me the turn 3 bet is interesting and no one discussed it. i felt pretty certain my hand was good when i 3 bet the turn.

anyway villain had 99 for the rivered set.

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (8.66 SB) 2, 6, 7 (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG folds, MP1 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, MP1 folds, CO calls.

[/ QUOTE ]
I meant when it was your turn to act on the flop after CO's bet it was 3 handed, since UTG check folded.

[ QUOTE ]
right. but you said if your image is good than you make plays like this. that's what i was doing. but then you say dont make them or it may ruin your image.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you have a strong image they're more likely to succeed and the success rate is more important than image considerations as you said, I just don't think the play itself is +EV, let alone the image considerations.
Also, the point of my original response was: what is your image/have you been bluff-raising a lot? And you answered it here
[ QUOTE ]
a play i dont make too often

[/ QUOTE ]
That would have been helpful in your original post.

[ QUOTE ]
it sounds like neither of us have anything to teach the other on this.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hope I'm not coming off as being stubborn, I've been thinking about this hand for an hour and already I've gone from it being dumb to maybe marginally -EV.

As a side note, I've been mostly a lurker here. I made a post about 5 years ago under my old handle about a call down I made with King high in the Bell 15-30 game that I thought clearly was correct and you were the only one of about 20 posters who agreed with me. I respect your posts because they get me thinking more than 95% of the other posts. So when you push hard I re-evaluate, even when Clarkmeister chimes in and says you're on crack.

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

[ QUOTE ]
pre-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. Pre flop.

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

"I meant when it was your turn to act on the flop after CO's bet it was 3 handed, since UTG check folded."

no i was in the bb so utg hadnt acted yet on the flop. i dont limp w/ QTo

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

we agree that if your image is trash than the play has even less of a chance of working. so it can ironically only be pulled off by a player who is playing respectably

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

flop - you check, utg folds, mp checks, co bets

it is at this point in time we are debating, the point where you check-raised. At this point, UTG has already folded so it is 3 handed. I know just semantics, but you probably thought I'm legally blind.

Re: this one felt right? was it? QTo bb against preflop poster
 

Hope this doesn't just seem perverse, but I like preflop and flop much better than the turn and river plays here. It will not, I trust, have escaped any 2+2er's attention that the bets on the turn and river are in increments twice as large as the increments of the bets on other streets.

I can't see a good argument for playing the first two streets any other way. Why should either player have hit that flop? What will MP call two with? It would be wasteful not to make a stab at this pot with neither opponent showing any REAL strength (poster's bet is pure continuation; he still feels entitled to the pot because he had to post and has a high card or something).

But what does the turn 3-bet buy you? Are you putting him confidently on a draw? Your river check suggests that you either put him on clubs or regret your turn 3-bet.

I call the turn and bet the river.

Well played though -- and welcome to the online world!

JimmyV