Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

The villain is a very good regular. He is one of the most solid players I have seen. I have about 12K and he has me covered. As for the hand:

6 people limp in and I check in the BB with 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Flop comes A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I bet out 80. It is folded around to the villain who is in the cutoff and he raises to 280. I call and we goto the turn heads up.

Turn brings the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for a board of:

A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I check. Villain bets out 300. I raise to 900. He ponders for a bit and calls.

River brings a 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] for a board of

A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I bet out 1,500. Villain thinks for about 5 minutes and raises to 5,000. I take a brief moment before I push the rest in for 6,000 more.

How would you play the flop and turn and how much would you bet. Would anybody play the river differently? How much time would you take before you push all in, or raise?

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

hes obviously got the K so what the hell does it matter

nice one outer

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

I probably lead the turn for 500 and let villain raise to 1500, bringing the pot up to roughly 3500. I would then lead out for 2,500 on river and obviously push to any raise made by villain. I dont think it matters here if villain has the king, but by building the pot it always makes it easier to get all your money in with the goods. Nice hand and nice payday.

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

who was the villian?

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

I lead the turn, probably about 400 or so-if he's calling a check-raise he's also raising the turn so you're getting more money in. I then lead the river for 2,000 and reraise all in when he raises you.
The main reason I lead the turn is so that in the future if I'm oop w/marginal hands I won't get bluffed off of them. In these kinds of games if people know you're trying to get tricky with check-raises on the turn, they'll also know your hand can't stand action when you do bet out.

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

I'll PM you his name. I don't know how appropriate it would be to post name in the thread.

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
How much time would you take before you push all in, or raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

On TV they usually wait like 30 seconds I think.

IT REALLY DOESN\'T MATTER
 

The more I think about it, the more I realize that while my post is how I would play it, it really doesn't matter-villain is probably going broke with the K of hearts here. Probably the only difference between the two lines is the metagame aspect I was talking about, as each line is equally profitable.

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

It was supposed to be a nice payday, but I only got half of what I was owed. The villain did not pay me off with his K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

Re-raise the flop.

Bet the turn. Villian ain't paying off much without a K, and he ain't goin' anywhere with one.

Sorry to see that he folded it, but if you got more money in sooner, he wouldn't have.

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

One outer?

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
One outer?

[/ QUOTE ]

[sarcasm]Obviously. You think villian is raising the flop without the made flush?[/sarcasm]

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

He has the K it really doesnt matter either way no matter how good he is. ni han

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
He has the K it really doesnt matter either way no matter how good he is

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the results.

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

I don't understand the flop line here at all. What hand are you representing after you lead for $60 into a $280 pot and then flat call a raise?

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

A medium made flush that doesn't want to play for 300 BB's?

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
It was supposed to be a nice payday, but I only got half of what I was owed. The villain did not pay me off with his K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]
Because he didn't have it or because he laid it down? If he laid it down, you must have a ridiculously obvious tell of some kind.

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

I can't see Villian calling you here. There are two possible limp hands that you could have that beat the K and the only other hand you have is one with the Q. You don't play the Q this way, obviously you just call on the end, not push in another 6K. So you need to get more in on the turn where he might still make you for a weaker hand with outs. Then he either puts you all in after your weak river bet or raises enough so that what you have left he's committed to call with the K. If he has the Q, you probably lose him earlier though.

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

Man, you hit your money card on the turn. LEAD for a big bet! I see this so often... so many people leave money on the table. If he has a set, he'll probably call. If he has the K, he'll probably raise. You have to build the pot when you have a monster w/ pretty deep stacks, and the best way to do that is to lead...

EDIT: Just saw the results - if you build this pot on the turn, your chances of stacking him off increase by 100%. With deeps stacks against a good player, it DOES matter (to all those posters who said if he has the K it doesn't).

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

I don't know what his hand was exactly, but he most certainly did have the K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I do not have any rediculous tell. The more I think about it the less I am amazed about his fold. I could not have made that play with anything else so it is a sensible fold, but it was still a great fold. He told me he almost flat called my 1,500 bet.

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

Uh...no. Think about the action for a second. Villian raises the river to 5k with 4 hearts on board. Now his opponent, after a hollywood pause, comes over the top for 6k more. If there is a straight flush possible and your opponent, who was in the BB, is not a drooling moron, he MUST have it with this action. I can think of a lot of better things to do with $6,000 than waste it by calling here. And I'm sure the very good player could to.

Jeff

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It was supposed to be a nice payday, but I only got half of what I was owed. The villain did not pay me off with his K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]
Because he didn't have it or because he laid it down? If he laid it down, you must have a ridiculously obvious tell of some kind.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a pretty easy laydown.

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It was supposed to be a nice payday, but I only got half of what I was owed. The villain did not pay me off with his K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]
Because he didn't have it or because he laid it down? If he laid it down, you must have a ridiculously obvious tell of some kind.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a pretty easy laydown.

[/ QUOTE ]
Reading this hand and FoxwoodsFiend's hand one after the other makes for some very weird reading.

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

Hi Jeffage,

[ QUOTE ]
Uh...no. Think about the action for a second. Villian raises the river to 5k with 4 hearts on board. Now his opponent, after a hollywood pause, comes over the top for 6k more. If there is a straight flush possible and your opponent, who was in the BB, is not a drooling moron, he MUST have it with this action. I can think of a lot of better things to do with $6,000 than waste it by calling here. And I'm sure the very good player could to.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for injecting some reason into this thread. No good player is paying somebody off in this spot without some crazy context that might've set him up; OP is super-fortunate to have gotten the 5K raise out of him. What does Villain think: OP will pay him off 5K with the Qh on a 4-flush board? My best guess is he's trying to represent a big bluff, and doesn't really expect to be paid off anyway, so why not go big with the "nuts?" What a rude awakening he must've gotten.

Also, I really doubt all of these folks who are saying they'd bet the turn big; I think most of you would check-raise right here. It's easy to say now, though, when you know he has the 2nd nuts. What if he had 2 pair? Then you might be willing to check in the hopes he'd fill up.

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I really doubt all of these folks who are saying they'd bet the turn big; I think most of you would check-raise right here. It's easy to say now, though, when you know he has the 2nd nuts. What if he had 2 pair? Then you might be willing to check in the hopes he'd fill up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would bet out on the turn there a vast majority of the time (I also posted that before seeing results). I may bet 1/2 pot instead of full pot, but with deep stacks and the villain in position, I think you get a call against a set. You're only losing value vs. 2-pair or a pure bluff - but you have a chance to win a huge pot against a set / K flush, which is what you aim for.

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Would anybody play the river differently? How much time would you take before you push all in, or raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

You don't need a tell here. It's obviously a straight flush against any normal player.

So the point of the original post was how do you maximize value here against a very good player.

I would have checkraised him a huge overbet on the turn representing a bluff. Then I can safely move in on the river and make him think hard rather than put in multiple raises and give away the hand.

Of course if you do it this way you'll only get paid off by a K hearts or a full house if he can see the river for cheaper.

But still the check raise overbet on the turn sounds right.

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

I agree with your post except one aspect. A huge bet on the turn with that board will usually get a set to fold. So you run the risk of losing him if the river paired the board.

But I agree...either lead big or I like check raising big better.

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

Stop posting big hands on here just to look cool Vic. Congratulations lately, I am jealous, keep it up.

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

Hi John,

[ QUOTE ]
I would have checkraised him a huge overbet on the turn representing a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

Check-raising big on the turn is a good idea. Didn't even think of that - love this forum [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

I would checkraise the turn to somewhere between 1500 and 2000.

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

I said above that I thought villain was going broke either way. That was 3:00 a.m. I think the important point is that IF villain is capable of laying down the K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] then he's going to need just as many bets to confirm he's behind regardless of whether you check-raise or lead the turn.
Scenario 1: You check-raise, he calls. You lead river, he raises (probably), you reraise he folds. 4 bets are made.
Scenario 2: You lead turn. Villain raises you reraise, he calls. You lead river, he (almost certainly) just calls. 4 bets are made.
I think the only real difference between the size of the bets is whether you will bet more leading out on the turn than villain would if you checked, but that's hard to tell.
So I guess my point is if villain's capable of going broke here, he'll go broke regardless of what you do. If he's capable of laying this down, roughly the same amount of money is going in before he's certain he beats.
Still, it's possible I'm wrong. If I am, it would be in how I describe the river action in scenario 2. If villain is raising the river despite the 3-bet on the turn, you get a chance to bust him. I would say that this is more likely than him raising the river in scenario 1 (which he did) AND calling your final raise. Since you would need both of these things in scenario 1 to happen to get in that 5th bet whereas you need the more likely scenario of him putting in a raise on the river in scenario 2 to get the fifth bet there, leading the turn and 3-betting is still better.
I know this is all guesswork...does anybody disagree with my assumptions of which scenario is more likely to get villain to go broke?

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

do we really think theres no difference between check raising and leading here?

somewhat incredible if true

the best line is possibly totally dependent upon your read of villains read of your betting pattern, wow

Re: Commerce 20/40 NL Hand
 

hey what do you guys think of big turn lead (followed up by calling the inevitable big raise) then open pushing all in on the river? any chance this can be a set "praying he doesn't have the K"?