30/60 hate those thinking players
 

9 handed 30/60 limit game, we play in a 1/2 structure with red and green chips, though most players play only red and it takes a month for betting and raising and calling to happen. Well for almost everyone, you see the anti-hero keeps a stack of blackbirds and I keep a stack of greens for easy raising access. I've often wondered if this wasn't a bit of a tell, would a player raise in red if he thought he was marginal, but in green or black if he was sure the chips were comming back? I haven't tracked people enough though someone was sure they had a tell on me by what I marked my cards with.

folds to an MP player who open raises, now this is in accord with his general style and while I find him a very good hand reader, he is opening quite a bit more than he should be. He floats from a little loose to very loose and recognizes this, he constantly chnages his play at the table, and trys to be tricky though he is consistent in many of his tricks. He likes to play with position on players so I sit to his left even though he is tighter than most bad players, I hold no opinion to his being bad or good, though his style of play has lasted a long time in this game. In general his opening standards do not seem to be position aware, so if he'd normally play it he's opend it anywhere. His post flop skills should be best described as "don't show weakness" I am next to act and 3 bet with AJo. The rest of the table folds. The anti-hero calls.



6 7 3 r

check, bet, call (I think I got this part right)

Turn
Ace that completes the rainbow

MP checks, and I swiftly check behind.

MP bets the river dark, some middling something or other comes off the deck and I raise.

OK let me have it.

Re: 30/60 hate those thinking players
 

that wouldve been sweet if yoiu had raised in the dark but I think you played this hand very well. The only thing betting the turn will do is make him fold broadway cards that might pair up on the river.

youre strange line will probably get you called by 88-TT too.

Re: 30/60 hate those thinking players
 

i don't like your turn check

Re: 30/60 hate those thinking players
 

Why don't you bet the turn? If he is an aggressive player than a checkraise isn't even that terrible, you're getting 2 bets in with a pretty strong hand. He will probably checkraise you with a large number of hands, many of which you beat..

Is betting in the dark supposed to be macho or some sign of huge strength? Really just seems stupid in a LHE game.

Re: 30/60 hate those thinking players
 

If he was trying to complete a straight, you just gave him a free shot at it.

Re: 30/60 hate those thinking players
 

Player dependant this could be a good play. If this guy is folding everything on the river worse then an ace I like it. Clearly if he could call with worse hands then you need to bet.

Seems pretty straight forward. I wouldn't be too worried that he would improve to beat your hand if he was behind so it is a good play (assuming he falls into the right player category).

Re: 30/60 hate those thinking players
 

I have not played B&M games this high, but I guess it depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Upon first reading I though you were trying induce a bluff by checking the turn. I personally like the play against a tricky opponent, but would just call the river.

Re: 30/60 hate those thinking players
 

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I have not played B&M games this high, but I guess it depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Upon first reading I though you were trying induce a bluff by checking the turn. I personally like the play against a tricky opponent, but would just call the river.

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yeah, if your goal was to induce a bluff on the river, then raising is pretty stupid.

why check the turn? i don't like to give free cards to hands that could have 6 or more outs

Re: 30/60 hate those thinking players
 

This seems like a play best pulled out to accomplish something in the meta-game in addition to concerns for this hand by itself. If for some reason you need to tell him "you can't always abuse my apparent weakness when I check behind" then it might be worth the fanciness... it's the sort of thing I'd be more likely to try shorthanded when I rapidly encounter similar situations against the same opponent.

2nd

Re: 30/60 hate those thinking players
 

[ QUOTE ]
This seems like a play best pulled out to accomplish something in the meta-game in addition to concerns for this hand by itself. If for some reason you need to tell him "you can't always abuse my apparent weakness when I check behind" then it might be worth the fanciness... it's the sort of thing I'd be more likely to try shorthanded when I rapidly encounter similar situations against the same opponent.

2nd

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2g -
I agree that short handed this is definetly the case, and this player does become better as the table becomes shorter. I absolutly agree that this has to have metagame impact because I don't see why you would do this against someone you'll never see again. If I can do things to keep his actions pure I think I benefit. Now in this case the player will call me down with almost anything here just because I've confused him. This is his normal reaction.

In the general case I may be giving up a full bet if I did this versus any random player. Versus some players who make good folds I may gain a bet, or I may just give them a free draw when they are "done" with the hand. In general I would say this line is not worthwhile, but here it just seems to fit because it gives me a different option on how to play pairs on flops with overcards.

BTW - Mp called the raise I showed my hand, MP mucks.

Re: 30/60 hate those thinking players
 

You told me about this hand...

I like it. Especially given the player. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

This is a pretty player specific hand.

On the turn if you bet, he could very likely fold. The pot is small so why not try and trap him for another bet by getting him to bet the river as you know it's a very good chance of that happening. On a draw? Doubt that board hit him.

However, if he has an ace, you'd likely have made 2 bets off him anyways just betting it out. Unless you think he'd lay down a worse ace. But your play looks odd enough that he'd call that river raise just to see what the hell you just played.

I wouldn't make this a routine play, but I think it's good once in a while against this type of player.

b

Re: 30/60 hate those thinking players
 

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yeah, if your goal was to induce a bluff on the river, then raising is pretty stupid.

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Even if he'd fold the turn to a bet, but call a raise out of curiousity of an oddly played hand?

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why check the turn? i don't like to give free cards to hands that could have 6 or more outs

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6 or more? You really think that flop hit this player? Of all the hands he has, you're really worried about something like 89s in comparison to all the other hands he could have?

Not saying I wouldn't bet the turn, but not for that reason.

b

Re: 30/60 hate those thinking players
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've often wondered if this wasn't a bit of a tell, would a player raise in red if he thought he was marginal, but in green or black if he was sure the chips were comming back?

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I've wondered this as well. It's not just about the chips coming back but also that someone might use less chips when they have a strong hand so that the raising action doesn't look so intimidating (stacking piles of chips) and scare out the bettor. Also, it's faster and doesn't give them a chance to realize they should fold. I haven't actually observed a correlation.

[ QUOTE ]
someone was sure they had a tell on me by what I marked my cards with.

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Heh, I remember when that happened.

Anyway, I think I know who the opponent was based on your description. I think the way you played it is fine. If he has a better ace, he could check-raise the turn, but will not three-bet the river, so you save money. If you have him beat, you frequently get at least one extra bet by checking the turn and letting him bet the river, and often get two because he will look you up out of curiousity. I think your check rarely ends up costing you the pot.

Re: 30/60 hate those thinking players
 

Hi slavic,

The winner of this hand has essentially been decided on the turn. The only question is, how many bets will the loser pay off?

Since this guy is raising light, it's quite reasonable to believe that you have him drawing dead on the turn. Checking and giving a free card that may cause him to pick up a pair and payoff as many as 2 bets, is better than betting in a spot where he can't possibly call with anything but an ace. I like your play.

I'd say that a tight player who is a good hand reader will read your turn check as a big pocket pair that will call the river, so you won't induce action from him. For loose players though for whom curiosity will get the best of them, and especially this guy who is a loose raiser and can be counted on to bluff into your weakness, checking the turn looks good.

Good luck.
Eric

Re: 30/60 hate those thinking players
 

Yes, very good play. This should be routine but for whatever reason isn't.

JimmyV