lmd taught me this
 

9/18 Commerce full table. Three limpers to me in the SB, I complete with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. BB checks and we go five ways to the flop.

FLOP: J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Checked around.

TURN: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Checked to button who bets. I check-raise...

Re: lmd taught me this
 

I'm inclined to raise this preflop. I don't dig the turn c/r as I'm not quite sure what you're trying to accomplish, since you're representing bascially nothing with your c/r.

Rob

Re: lmd taught me this
 

explain.

Re: lmd taught me this
 

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I'm inclined to raise this preflop. I don't dig the turn c/r as I'm not quite sure what you're trying to accomplish, since you're representing bascially nothing with your c/r.

Rob

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The idea with the river checkraise is easy: the river seems very unlikely to have helped button into a made hand, so he's probably on a draw. By checkraising his draw, OP wins the pot both when he hits his draw on the river, and when the button misses his. This doesn't always work and ceretainly isn't my default line, but it's certainly defensible.

I have never raised this preflop in my life, but maybe I'm missing the boat here. Care to elaborate?
jvs

Re: lmd taught me this
 

read the initial post again.

Re: lmd taught me this
 

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I'm inclined to raise this preflop. I don't dig the turn c/r as I'm not quite sure what you're trying to accomplish, since you're representing bascially nothing with your c/r.

Rob

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The idea with the river checkraise is easy: the river seems very unlikely to have helped button into a made hand, so he's probably on a draw. By checkraising his draw, OP wins the pot both when he hits his draw on the river, and when the button misses his. This doesn't always work and ceretainly isn't my default line, but it's certainly defensible.

I have never raised this preflop in my life, but maybe I'm missing the boat here. Care to elaborate?
jvs

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So exactly how are we folding out better hands here? Or is there some way we're getting worse hands to call?

Rob

Re: lmd taught me this
 

[ QUOTE ]

So exactly how are we folding out better hands here? Or is there some way we're getting worse hands to call?

Rob

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You are getting HU vs. a player who is, in estimated order of likelihood:

a) on a draw & likely cannot call a river bet unless he makes his hand

b) is on absolute air & is trying to steal a pot no one has taken any interest in

c) has a weak made hand that may not be able to call.

d) has a made straight/slowplayed set and is destroying you

The play seems fine to me most of the time. I could be wrong though.

jvs

Re: lmd taught me this
 

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explain.

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I would very much like everyone to fold.

Re: lmd taught me this
 

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explain.

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I would very much like everyone to fold.

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But assuming all but button fold, and river blanks off, do you bring the heat again? The good news is that your draw likely highcards all other possible pure draws.

jvs

Re: lmd taught me this
 

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[ QUOTE ]
explain.

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I would very much like everyone to fold.

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Why not bet? I think the chances of everyone folding are relatively just as good (it's not like the pot is big or anything) and the parlay that you're hoping for here -- a late position bet from a hand that either can't call a raise or is a draw that will fold to river bet -- is quite high given the pot size.

Rob

Re: lmd taught me this
 

This isn't really believable.

Re: lmd taught me this
 

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This isn't really believable.

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Neither was the button turn bet.

Re: lmd taught me this
 

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This isn't really believable.

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Neither was the button turn bet.

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He can't have an 8?

Re: lmd taught me this
 

My thoughts:

Is it worth putting 3 big bets at risk in a pot that contains only 3.5 big bets? For 1.5 big bets you could have led the flop and the turn and taken it down that way, or folded safely to aggression (unless the OESD odds are there).

Having a read on the table is essential to make this kind of play; I'd want more certainty that it would work.

Re: lmd taught me this
 

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This isn't really believable.

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Neither was the button turn bet.

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He can't have an 8?

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An 8 that didnt bet the flop? something like A8s, 87s perhaps. Better question: can an 8 call?

Note: if all out outs are clean, we have 14 outs to beat an 8

Re: lmd taught me this
 

I like it as you probably have the best hand over the button. If he is calling down with a ten or 8 we have 11-14 outs plus the chance he might fold and it makes it very hard for someone in the middle to call with a Ten or even a J that for some reason they checked twice. Even another 9 isn't getting odds anymore.NH

Re: lmd taught me this
 

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An 8 that didnt bet the flop? something like A8s, 87s perhaps. Better question: can an 8 call?

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Why would an 8 bet the flop?

As far as can a bad hand call in a small pot, the answer is yes. Bad players don't really pay attention to pot size. They will most often however realize that you didn't miss a flop c/r and try again on the turn.

I try not to get unthinking players to make mistake like this. No, he shouldn't call this raise in a small pot with a weak made hand. But the fact of the matter is he sucks, and we love our seat because he sucks. Giving him credit for being able to make a fold when he probably should is a mistake.

(This of course assumes the button sucks. If he is a good player, then your problem is convincing him that you missed a c/r on the flop and tried again on the turn...)

Re: lmd taught me this
 

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An 8 that didnt bet the flop? something like A8s, 87s perhaps. Better question: can an 8 call?

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Why would an 8 bet the flop?

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Most semi-connected 8s have some piece of the flop. 89, T8, J8 should be betting the flop. 87 & A8 are possible though of course.

Re: lmd taught me this
 

I think this depends a lot on what you think of the button and what you think the button thinks of you.

Putting 2 big bet pressure on the rest of the field in a smallish pot with a descent draw (semi-bluff) looks good to me. Everyone might fold to you right there. If atleast two of the field fold, a river bluff could be successful if you don't improve.

On the other hand there's only 3.5 big bets in the pot when you put 2 more in. So I think you need to be pretty confident a follow through bluff will get you the pot for those times you don't improve.

When you cr the turn, it's also looks like (to observant players) that you intended to cr the flop - bit it got checked through. This should fold those folks.

Well played sir - results?

Re: lmd taught me this
 

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Why not bet? I think the chances of everyone folding are relatively just as good (it's not like the pot is big or anything) and the parlay that you're hoping for here -- a late position bet from a hand that either can't call a raise or is a draw that will fold to river bet -- is quite high given the pot size.

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I can't see betting into four players with a coordinated board where everyone will fold, especially when the odds to improve my hand is very slim. I do, however, like making them face two bets, which improves my chances not to split pot with another nine. In other words, a turn bet makes my hand seem more like what it actually is, an oesd, but a turn check-raise seems much more like a made hand.

Re: lmd taught me this
 

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I'm inclined to raise this preflop.

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I don't like raising this preflop, since it's a definite possibility that you are dominated, and you are out of position, which sucks too.

Re: lmd taught me this
 

Hi jvs,

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But assuming all but button fold, and river blanks off, do you bring the heat again?

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It looks as if we're on the same page. That's the response that I have been waiting for. If I choose to continue with this hand, I really think a turn check-raise is the only way to go, given the circumstances. How many players would YOU need to have to bet an unimproved river?

For me, only the button, definitely not more. I can only beat a missed draw (should I have missed my own), but his turn bet screams of an eight, therefore, I cannot let him showdown.

Re: lmd taught me this
 

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In other words, a turn bet makes my hand seem more like what it actually is, an oesd, but a turn check-raise seems much more like a made hand.

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I really don't see it? What made hand could you have that you'd check-raise with here?

Re: lmd taught me this
 

T9?

Re: lmd taught me this
 

good implied odds on a favorable flop...

Re: lmd taught me this
 

97 would be best. 88. Possible missed turn checkraise that gave it a 2nd try. It isnt the most believable checkraise I've ever seen, this is true. I really can't put button on anything very strong here however.

jvs

Re: lmd taught me this
 

in this game the turn bet is likely to be an 8/T/draw/99 and probably in that order...


gymrat: im not crazy about this play without any kind of read that villain will lay down a pair here, and since your c/r is kind of shady its unlikely you are getting a T to fold here, as the only real hand you could have is a straight (any kind of whiffed flop c/r would just lead the flop)

however, if you had a read that player is tight/capable of folding a pair then by all means go for it as you will usually have pair outs in addition to straight outs...but i think a read is a must here...

Re: lmd taught me this
 

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
If the population only knew what your "mongoose" statement means!

Re: lmd taught me this
 

haha, that was a Klepton quote to jasonT after the three of us played a session with the mongoose...

Re: lmd taught me this
 

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97 would be best. 88. Possible missed turn checkraise that gave it a 2nd try. It isnt the most believable checkraise I've ever seen, this is true. I really can't put button on anything very strong here however.

jvs

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88 bets his set. I agree, I don't think button has much either. But you're investing 2 bbs to win 3.5 bb's which, in limit hold em, kind of sucks. Plus there's the chance he calls and you have to spend another BB on the river. The size of the pot is what makes me a bit skeptical of this play. That and the action.

Re: lmd taught me this
 

I think getting folds i more likely with a cr than a bet, despite the small pot. This in and of itself does not suggest the cr is better.

Re: lmd taught me this
 

I don't know. I mean, from buttons perspective...I'd read a turn bet followed up by a river bet as a likely pair. I'd read a turn check/raise here as what it is...an attempt to steal the pot when everyone has shown weakness. I may muck something like a weak 4 or 8 or pocket pair here if you bet. I'm not mucking that after the very unusual check/raise. If button called the check/raise and folded the river you probably had the best hand anyway. But then, I'm not the button.

Re: lmd taught me this
 

I guess the players more observant then me (seems like most are) would also notice you didn't bet out on the turn after your cr on the flop got checked through. I guess I didn't think that part through.

So, again, it depends on what you think of the button and what you think the button thinks of you. Anyone who calls the turn cr on a flush draw may pair their over card and then call you down on a river bluff.

RESULTS
 

My view on this type of play is that it will probably work only if all of these conditions hold true:
1. The pot is small - even some of the worst calling stations can see that it's not worth chasing.
2. The button may be on a steal - I don't see what he could realistically have that could call my raise confidently. JJ or TT would most likely raise pf, JT would bet as would 44. Any J, T, KQ or T9 would have bet the flop in that position. That only leaves an 8, some smaller pp or a pure bluff. If he has 88 or 97, then good for him. As Shaq would say, one good steal attempt deserves another.
3. The player making this play doesn't do this too often. Since I'm used to mucking, I thought raising might be fun.

The second it got checked to the button again on the turn, it was clear no one had anything. Before I had to decide on whether to fire out on the river or not, the sandwiched players bullet-mucked, while the button did a bit of hollywood and then mucked himself.

Re: lmd taught me this
 

I like this, partly because this could easily be raising with the best hand.