Is this collusion?
 

Cast:
Hero, Friend, Boss, Boss'Friend, Boss'Bro

Background:
Friend hosts a weekly home game at which Hero is a regular. Boss wants to play so Hero invites hime. He turns out to be one of the worst player Hero has encountered at home, casino or online games. Boss is LPP and a huge donator.

The weekly game breaks because most participants are away for the summer. Boss invites Boss'Friend (a LAGish gambler) and Boss'Bro (an LPP who was been playing for 2 weeks). He also invites Hero and asks him to bring a few friends/roommates who want to play. Hero doesnt want to run over a $10 game so he invites only one, Friend.

Story:
$10 buy in tourney results in Hero and Friend splitting 50-50 when getting to heads-up. The chips counts were close and we didnt want to play heads up for an hour while the other 3 sat around watching. We then played SH limit, .25-.50 for an hour or so. Hero and Friend make a few bucks, Boss'Friend doubles his buy in while Boss'Bro and Boss drop 1 buy-in each. During this game, Boss'Friend, the LAG, observes that Hero and Friend do not play many, if any, hands agasint one another. Game ends and Friend invites all to play in our home game when it starts back up, if they are interested.

On the drive home, Friend mentions the LAGs comment. Hero thinks it was simply an observation from a guy who admittted he will see any flop and saw that each of us played very few. Obviously, we wouldnt play many together. Friend thinks LAG may be implying collusion.

Boss walks into work the next morning and opens with "Did you enjoy taking our money last night?" Hero laughs. Boss states that "It was just like in Rounders. We were talking about it after you left." Hero thinks WTF? and asks Boss if he really believes that Hero and Friend cheated/colluded in a $10 home game. Boss shrugs and gives a look along the lines of "I don't know; you tell me."

Questions:
Is Hero wrong to be pissed at the Boss' implication of cheating and/or colluding, especially because the two work together in a job where integrity is valued very highly?

Should Boss be invited back to regular home game if he truly believes he was swindled? What about Boss'Bro or Boss'Friend?

Is it cheating or colluding if Hero expected that he and Friend would finish in the top 2?

Is it cheating or colluding if Hero and Friend did not play many hands against each other? What if Hero and Friend always avoid each other in any game because there is mutual respect for the other's skill? And is this mitigated by the fact that, if heads up, Hero and Friend contract a case of FPS?

Thanks guys

Re: Is this collusion?
 

You are most likely in a know win situation here.

I would not invite my boss or his friends back. Nothing good will come of it.

If they lose they will just say collusion. Or, they will be upset you and your friend take the game too seriously. Many people want to gamble and keep it light and low limit.

Unless you need politically at work to play against your boss and purposely lose, I would never play against him again.

I have friends that I avoid playing hands against in a big game against unknowns. Your right about respecting your friend's ability.

Good luck, but mend the fences at work and never ever play against your boss. Work is usually politically complicated enough without adding accusations of cheating to the plate.


DD

Re: Is this collusion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
During this game, Boss'Friend, the LAG, observes that Hero and Friend do not play many, if any, hands agasint one another.
..............................
Boss walks into work the next morning and opens with "Did you enjoy taking our money last night?" Hero laughs. Boss states that "It was just like in Rounders. We were talking about it after you left." Hero thinks WTF? and asks Boss if he really believes that Hero and Friend cheated/colluded in a $10 home game. Boss shrugs and gives a look along the lines of "I don't know; you tell me."


[/ QUOTE ]

OK...to begin, I agree with the other guys' assessment. You are in a no-win situation.

Now...let's look at your boss' logic. You two do NOT play many hands against each other. How is that collusion? Most idiots that try to collude have one guy pumping the pot with garbage while the other has a strong hand...catching someone in between. Evidently you and your friend know how to play some poker...you choose decent starting hands to play, and otherwise stay out of the game. These guys obviously figure any 2 cards can win...and when they don't, they were obviously 'cheated.'

I wouldn't bring it up again--Let it die. If your boss does, have someone else in the conversation and explain your logic (the other person is there so that if your boss ever seeks retribution by punishing you at work, you've got a witness).

Did he think you were stacking the deck?

Re: Is this collusion?
 

"How is that collusion?"

Think soft-playing each other. Also, signaling- if good player #1 drops out a lot when GP#2 has a hand (and wins, beating the weak players), could he be getting signals from GP#2?

That, and many more uninformed paranoid scenarios, are ones that they could imagine.

Re: Is this collusion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Story:
$10 buy in tourney results in Hero and Friend splitting 50-50 when getting to heads-up. The chips counts were close and we didnt want to play heads up for an hour while the other 3 sat around watching.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you announce this verbally? "Joe, let's just split the money so everyone doesn't have to wait around watching"


"We then played SH limit, .25-.50 for an hour or so."

Is this short-handed limit holdem? Where the two of you pretty aggressive in most hands (as you should be) but dropping out against each other? To the uninformed, that could look bad.

"and Friend invites all to play in our home game when it starts back up, if they are interested."

Translated to their ears- "And Friend invites all of us suckers to play at his game"

"Is it cheating or colluding if Hero expected that he and Friend would finish in the top 2?"

Well, if you WERE cheating, you'd expect to end up in the top 2 as well, right? Was it supposed to be winner-take-all, or were two spots being paid?

"Is it cheating or colluding if Hero and Friend did not play many hands against each other? "
No to all of these

"And is this mitigated by the fact that, if heads up, Hero and Friend contract a case of FPS? "

No, it isn't- FPS can make it look worse- "he raises against me, but checks [missed check-raise attempt] against his partner and look what he turned over!"


"Boss walks into work the next morning and opens with "Did you enjoy taking our money last night?" Hero laughs. Boss states that "It was just like in Rounders. We were talking about it after you left." Hero thinks WTF? and asks Boss if he really believes that Hero and Friend cheated/colluded in a $10 home game. Boss shrugs and gives a look along the lines of "I don't know; you tell me."

Is Hero wrong to be pissed at the Boss' implication of cheating and/or colluding, especially because the two work together in a job where integrity is valued very highly?

Big, BIG problem. Whether this is a "know-win" situation or not, I know it's a "can LOSE" one big-time. Getting angry, while justified, isn't going to help:
You get angry, refuse to play cards with them anymore = big cheater got caught.

IMHO, you CANNOT let this just slide- this can easily poison your work reputation. When you can, sit down with your boss and calmly explain that your integrity and reputation are very important, as your boss surely realizes, and explain some of the things that went on, and WHY.

If you can give your boss some strategy training, without offending his ego, that would be even better. He can start beating up on his crappy-playing friends and your play will make more sense.

"
Should Boss be invited back to regular home game if he truly believes he was swindled? What about Boss'Bro or Boss'Friend?"

That's a tough one. If your boss doesn't become a better player, future games will just reinforce the tag-team image you'll have- plus they'll be pissed off at getting slaughtered.

Good luck

Re: Is this collusion?
 

I personally feel if you are friends enough with your Boss to invite him to a game, then you are friends enough with him to sit down and have an adult, calm conversation about what went on.

You need to explain to him how important your reputation and integrity are to you. You then need to explain exactly what happened that night and why. You need to let him in on your line of thinking so he can see why you and your friend didn't play many pots against one another and why you split the tourney 50-50.

I would definitely go so far as to give him some basic TAG strategies so he can try to understand it better.

I know some people in this situation would try to explain what collusion really is and what it looks like. I would NOT do this, as it will do nothing but look.....bad.

Re: Is this collusion?
 

"I know some people in this situation would try to explain what collusion really is and what it looks like. I would NOT do this, as it will do nothing but look.....bad. "

Agreed. It will come across as defensive.

Re: Is this collusion?
 

I am the boss (not from this example) and host many home games where some of my subordinates come and play. (I am not often the biggest winner of the night) Granted, we all know poker fairly well. In my job integrity is also #1 priority. However, if I ever thought for a second that one of my employees was cheating, I would just ask them. I know most of them well enough that if they said no; it would be the truth, they would come clean, or I would be able to tell if they were lying. If they admitted cheating in any way or lied about it, they would not EVER be welcome back, and they would have to live with the un-spoken of shame every day at work. I would not let that incident affect their employment as they are all very good at what they do. In the case of someone I suspected as being a liar, I would watch them at work to be sure their lack of integrity issues remained outside the workplace and they would absolutely be aware that I was watching.

Re: Is this collusion?
 

Buy him a copy of SSH. That should explain pretty clearly to him why he's a losing player. Never play with him again.

Re: Is this collusion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Buy him a copy of SSH. That should explain pretty clearly to him why he's a losing player. Never play with him again.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're a Mason Malmuth gimmick account, aren't you?

Re: Is this collusion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cast:
Hero, Friend, Boss, Boss'Friend, Boss'Bro


[/ QUOTE ]

Poor decision on your part to participate in something like that.

[ QUOTE ]
Boss walks into work the next morning and opens with "Did you enjoy taking our money last night?" Hero laughs. Boss states that "It was just like in Rounders. We were talking about it after you left." Hero thinks WTF? and asks Boss if he really believes that Hero and Friend cheated/colluded in a $10 home game. Boss shrugs and gives a look along the lines of "I don't know; you tell me."


[/ QUOTE ]

Your boss obviously has it in his head that you are capable of scamming him for a measly $20 or so. I'd consider finding another job or boss. That cannot bode well for future promotion and/or raise considerations if he thinks you are capable of scamming him for such a petty amount of cash.

Re: Is this collusion?
 

I don't know how to say this without offending, so I'll just say it. I think your statement that could absolutely tell when your subordinates were lying to you is typical of many managers' arrogance. I have seen good managers and bad, but I've seen every one of them (and include myself in this, I did it for a while-- not anymore) completely duped by unscrupulous underlings.

Re: Is this collusion?
 

I'd invite your boss very casually next time you have a game. Don't invite the BossBro and BossFriend as I'm sure he'll just bring em again if he wants.

If he comes to your game fine. If he doesn't come or blows you off, never mention poker to him again. (If some time goes by and he brings it up: "Hey, y'all still playing poker" feel free to invite him again but don't ever bring it up yourself.)

Do not ever go back to his game.

--Zetack

Re: Is this collusion?
 

You are in a tough spot. Any explaining you do will sound defensive, and now you have you boss questioning your integrity.

You have two options, IMO:

1. Give the boss a poker lesson, and explain basic TAG concepts so that he gets better and will understand how you are playing. OR:

2. Play in your bosses game again and dump money to him so that he thinks you just had a run of good luck the last time you played.

I would base my choice between these options on how big Boss' ego is. If he has a huge ego, then go to option #2. If he is normal/reasonable, I'd go for option #1. If you don't like either of these two options, then get your resume together.

Re: Is this collusion?
 

Keep playing with Friend and keep laying with Boss, just don't play with Friend and Boss in the same game anymore.

Re: Is this collusion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Buy him a copy of SSH. That should explain pretty clearly to him why he's a losing player. Never play with him again.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're a Mason Malmuth gimmick account, aren't you?

[/ QUOTE ]

No... Though after his boss reads SSH, the OP should purchase HPFAP, HOH1, and HOH2(as well as other fine two plus two products!!!), to make sure he can still beat his boss. That is, if he insists on playing. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Is this collusion?
 

No offense intended, but I think you would be better off sleeping with your boss's wife rather than playing poker with him.

There is just nothing good that can come of it as your tale already implies.

Re: Is this collusion?
 

this happend to me...when the big poker boom started and everyone and there mom were playing i had some friends invite me to there house(bout 40 mins north san fran) to play...i said sure so my cousin and i shot up there...were not the best players but have experience and we just ran thru them..playing 4 20doller games we swept all four, the next day i get a call from one of the guys and said everyone one was saying we had to have been cheating and working together..i laughed and told them to learn how to play before accusing.

Re: Is this collusion?
 

First of all - no offense taken. But you should go back and re-read my post. I said I know most of my employees well enough that I would be able to tell if they were lying. And I have no doubts that the reverse is true as well. Obviously this is not absolute. On top of that, in our business, integrity is such a high priority that a breach of trust on any level would have the capability to have a very significant impact on the business. My point was that in our situation, if one of us thought another was cheating (very very unlikely), any of us would have no problem just coming out and confronting it. And I am confident that the truth would be told. It is a shame that OP's business environment is different in this area.

Re: Is this collusion?
 

What type of business is this?

Re: Is this collusion?
 

What, to prove he IS a cheater?

Re: Is this collusion?
 

One that requires a serious background investigation before consideration.

Re: Is this collusion?
 

One of my first lessons in poker was to not slowplay small edges in big pots. Reputation, at work and elsewhere, is everything and must be safeguarded accordingly.

That your boss confronted you on his turf, at work and in the morning, screams weakness (as if carping over a $10 home game loss doesn't). Circumstances require you to respond with stength and force him to back down.

You: "Say, we did run pretty good last night. How much did you guys lose to us?"

Chat facts for a while, agree on amounts. Boss should welcome the shift to familiar ground, and be disarmed by lack of denials.

You: "I've played in games before where I felt cheated. The worst thing about it is feeling like you'll never get the chance to get even. I want a chance to prove to you that you lost fairly.

"Let's have another game. You supply the venue, decks, and a neutral dealer. Bring as many observers as you like, as many players and as much money.

"I'll bring at least $X--triple your losses--and play until it's gone or you call it off. Is that fair?"

I love this little mistake
 

You are most likely in a know win situation here.

this is classic I'm stealing it...

Re: Is this collusion?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Keep playing with Friend and keep laying with Boss

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an excellent typo.

Re: Is this collusion?
 

You know you didn't cheat. If you want to explain to yuor boss that the fact is good players play less habnds total, thus the two best players in the game, by simple math, would be playing the least hands against each other and see if he understands why then go ahead. If he doesn't then don't invite him again. If he sees your logic then go right ahead but assure him there's no cheating going on and if he thinks there is then he can feel free to stop playing.

Also, if your boss is that upset about losing ten bucks where do you work, a lemonade stand?**

Good luck,
Matt

** Sorry I couldn't resist.

Re: Is this collusion?
 

"Also, if your boss is that upset about losing ten bucks where do you work, a lemonade stand?**"

So, you're only upset about being cheated when it's $100 or more?

Re: Is this collusion?
 

Once again, I was kidding. Now read the serious part of my post and you'll see I agree it wasn't cheating, and only one who knows jack [censored] about poker (his boss in this case) would assume someone was cheating "just like in Rounders" because they weren't involved in many hands together.

Re: Is this collusion?
 

I think this post, although highly sarcastic is significant. The amount of money matters. The fact that the boss would consider that his employee would cheat him over a home game for $10 is a lot more significant than if they were playing for $1000 and would have a much different solution.

I agree with a previous poster that walking away from this is not the answer, unless you work at a Lemonade stand. I'd just tell him the very basics of the game and about my particular style of playing "tight-aggressive" (and reassure him that his LAG style is a perfectly acceptable and winning style as well) and that I know my buddy probably has a good hand, so I'll fold a weak hand. I'll also try to beat him for even more money next time... that's how you get promoted son.