WSOP final table hand
 

I haven't posted anything from the World Series, but this hand could have made the tournament a lot different and has been driving me nuts for a while. Its relatively straightforward but is the only spot on the final table where I feel I maybe should have played a hand significantly differently. I thought it might be fun to discuss before I hopefully get to see Tex's hand on tv. Thanks for any replies.

There are 8 people left at this point. Chip stacks are around this size:
Seat 1 Joseph Hachem 6.3mm
Seat 2 Andrew Black 10.55mm
Seat 3 Tex Barch 9.1mm
Seat 4 Daniel Bergsdorf 4.59mm
Seat 6 Aaron Kanter 11.21mm
Seat 7 Brad Kondracki 1.97mm
Seat 8 Steve Dannenmann 5.81mm
Seat 9 Scott Lazar 6.74mm

I'm in Seat 7 and am obviously pretty shortstacked. Blinds are 120k/60k with a 20k ante making each round cost 340k.

I'm UTG and have QQ and raise to 400k. Folded to Tex on the button who calls. Everyone else folds.

I've been playing with Tex for the last few days and I view him as a solid player who mostly plays his cards and doesn't make too many moves but is certainly capable of it. He knows I probably know this.

Flop is an ugly K 9 4. (I dont remember exactly what the last two cards are, but 9 and 4 will do. Also I think there is 2 to a flush on the board that doesnt match one of my Q's.)

I check and Tex bets 500k. ?

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

Arrrgghhh I hate the spot you are in.. It's very hard to answer a question like this due to the mindboggling stakes, but I'll give it a go.

Preflop - I'd prefer a limp/push or an open push. QQ is going to be a tough hand to play postflop when your pf raise pretty much commits you to the hand. You are going broke to a bigger PP no matter what, and with your chip position a coinflip isn't so bad. You also might get a call from a hand like 77-TT, and these are hands that will be hard to double through after the flop, unless of course they overtake you.

Flop - This is so tough because there is always the possibility that you are going to put your money in drawing to two outs. Still, your chip position is such that you don't have enough room to be making these types of folds. I'd get my chips in on the flop hoping that he hasn't outflopped me. Since you still have a little FE if Tex puts you on a monster hand, I like a checkraise allin. There aren't any draws where Tex would call off in that spot that he wouldn't have if you open pushed.

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

Were the antes really 20K?

In any case, if I am in your seat, there is no point in the hand where I become interested in folding QQ. If I'm raising 20% of my stack preflop, I'm pushing the overwhelming majority of flops. There's over T1.1M in the pot on the flop, you have T1.5M left and are the shortstack in the tournament. You've locked up $1,000,000 USD real money. There's one overcard on the board (I don't consider this a particularly ugly flop for QQ). It's a no-brainer push in my estimation. Check-raising would be the second best option, and I'd only consider folding on flops that were much worse for my hand the one here.

I really dislike check-folding here, because a player with chips who is capable of making a move at the pot with less than the goods (as Tex should be capable of doing at this stage of the tourney) will get the better of you way too often in spots like this if you're CF'ing.

Congrats on the score, btw!

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

Gotta push the flop check raising doesnt seem to good he has to many chips to release his hand hes nearly pot commitied and probably puts u on a decent hand. Check raising seem to connotate to tex that u have a good hand depending on how long your decision took. Anyway hes commited after the 500k bet so if u think hes gonna bet half the pot u should push the flop

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

I think I'm check raising this all in. Pushing might also get you a call from a medium PP, both options are good but I like a c/r for some reason. I definitely agree with shaniac that there is almost 0% chance I'm folding QQ at any point in the hand. I'd need a flop of AKJ to fold this. Congrats on the huge payday also.

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

Do you want him to release his hand if he doesn't have a K? I can't see any 4+ out hands that are going to call a c/r allin but would have folded to a flop push. Perhaps a weak FD, but arguably Tex would not have called off 400k against a stack this short. IMO any trailing hand that the villian would call off getting 3/1 on the flop would have also called getting ~2/1.

As long as villian doesn't have a K, I'd WANT him to call given my chip position.

[EDIT] Another advantage to c/r allin is that you might be able to fold a hand like KT or KQ. He'd have to put you squarely on AK, AA, or KK, but you never know. It's a longshot, but a shot nonetheless. If you move into him on the flop, the chance of folding any of those hands is approximately 0.

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

Tough Hand. I'd run pretty much all analysis through HoH, vol. 2. I move in on the flop so I either have the best hand or a chance to suckout.
Chances of the best hand are good. Your M is less than 10 so you really want in and out of this hand quickly. All in vigorish is pretty high here. I also think any preflop raise on your pot commits you to this pot. Acting first I think you have to go all in and just see what happens. 2 overcards is really scary, one isn't a nightmare. You're shortstacked and the pot (for you is big). I think it's the time to take a chance. Your giving Tex an exit.

Your pf raise suggested a lot of strength and Tex should have picked up on that. I think he's calling with a quality hand. With you checking to him, it's too tempting for him not to take a chance even without aa or ak. He might have even had a holding like jj and thought he was good. His bet was a solid amount, looking like it invites action. It could mean anything. How Tex perceives you is really important here. I'm guessing at this point your table image is tight. Given what a tough situation this is, I think more information would help make the best decision.

What range of hands do you put Tex on? You could run the approximate probabilities of each hands multiplied by how you fare against them and if you're ahead (assuming at least a ten percent chance Tex is simply bluffing) and if you look like you're ahead, push in. Absent a read, we all know that's what Gus would do. Of course, who wants to play the WSOP like Gus? :P


Anyway, I feel silly armchair quarterbacking this one. You did way better in the ME event than me and I have no idea what sort of play I could make in your situation, televised, super high money final table and all with no Mike Matusow to keep me company. Congratulations.

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

Congrats on the PayDay!

You have to push here given your stack size It's ulikely you will get a better chance than this before the blinds
eat you up.

btw: Played against Andy Black the other night- He's Good!

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

It feels funny commenting on this, but here goes.

This is the WSOP final table, so you have to assume your opponent is playing rationally. What kinds of hands is he likely to be flat calling an early position raise for 1/5 of your stack with? AJ-AQ, 66-JJ. The only reasonable hands with a K are KQs and KJs. You don't like to see an overcard, but it's the A that would really worry you. Other than the overcard, this is not a dangerous board. I think there is as much chance he is trapping with AA or KK or he made a set as there is that he has a K.

I like the check, as Tex is likely to bet and giving one free card is not a disaster. I agree with others. I would checkraise allin.

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

I imagine you folded, but I don't think I could have let it go. I push pre-flop. You obviously had a much better idea of his play and if you folded, you were probably beaten, but I see how that could stick in your head for a long time. Congrats though.

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I push pre-flop.

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I love to push preflop, but with 16xBB and a hand as strong as QQ that is a terrible play.

However, if hero is so weak/tight he will check/fold any slightly dangerous flop, then pushing and getting the money in might be OK.

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I imagine you folded

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From Cardplayer:
[ QUOTE ]

Date / Time: 2005-07-15 18:58:00
Log: Hand 36 - Tex Barch has the button in seat 3, Kondracki raises to $400,000, and Barch calls. The flop comes Kd-6s-2c, Kondracki checks, Barch bets $500,000, and Kondracki thinks long and hard before folding.


[/ QUOTE ]

This should definately make TV.

But congratualtions on the big payday. That is quite an accomplishment to make it so far.

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

I think the problem here is the situation. Early in an online tournament (or the WSOP ME), if you raise with QQ, get 3 callers, and a king hits, you should probably fold. Someone almost certainly has KQ, KJ, KT, or K9. There might even be a loose call with K2s.

Here you are at the final table of the WSOP against one player, who is unlikely to have called an early position raise with a king. Furthermore, the money is pretty shallow, which makes it hard to call a raise with speculative hands, and also gives you more reason to gamble that your hand is best.

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

I had no idea you posted here.

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I had no idea you posted here.

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Re: WSOP final table hand
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I push pre-flop.

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I love to push preflop, but with 16xBB and a hand as strong as QQ that is a terrible play.



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I disagree. There's 340K in dead money to pick up here and that would increase hero's stack by nearly 20%. Also, QQ will be tough to play out of position if you're called.

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

I don't think you can fold this hand given the relative chip positions. I think your primary goal should be focusing getting the maximum out of hands that you beat at the expense of busting when you are beaten.

Thus, I c/r allin here. He probably won't fold KJ/KT but who knows, and a hand like JJ/TT probably doesn't want to overcommit to this pot?

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

You pretty much can't fold this hand after committing so much preflop. I would check raise all in with an overcard because then at least he has a chance to bluff at it if he missed. If you pushed, only a King will call and all other hands you can beat would fold. If you check, 77-TT might bet at it thinking you're scared of the overcard. The % chance that he bluffs at this is significantly high (80% in my opinion) considering he probably thinks you'll be weak/tight because of the large payout jumps. I think check raising is by far the best play. If you're willing to put it all in here you have to check raise so a worse hand will put chips in. Can someone explain how pushing makes more chips in the long run than check raising?

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

this may sound crazy but i think im calling this bet seeing a turn. I cant see folding as a real option here. I dont see what pushing solves, a worst hand will fold a better hand will call. If you call and push ANY turn, there are a bunch of scare cards that will help you on the turn. The only way I dont push the turn is if a queen or ace hit, I would then c/r all in on the turn (if he gives you the chance). If he moves all in on the turn, i think you have to fold unless you catch your queen. If he checks the turn though I would push any river.


I dont see you getting away from this hand anyway, so why not try and fck with his head.

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I thought it might be fun to discuss before I hopefully get to see Tex's hand on tv.

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[ QUOTE ]
I imagine you folded

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No Sherlock Holmes award for you!

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

i agree.
i just push on this flop. if he was super agg postflop, then i would consider a check/raise or check call here.

You are last in chips, and last by a lot. a fold here and you are pretty crippled.

What hands are you really worried about? Not AK, as he would have reraised.
If he has KQ or KJ, so be it..he had no business calling preflop with those hands, so I really doubt he had it.

He is more likely to have something along the lines of TT, if he has 99, again, so be it.

a K is a ton less scary than an A.

It is plausible I'd check then make a read based on how he bets, if he does. And then push on any non-Ace turn (might check if another K comes).
But just about no way I check fold unless his bet just reads of monumental strength to me.

SD

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

[ QUOTE ]

He is more likely to have something along the lines of TT, if he has 99, again, so be it.



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If you put him on TT or 99, why push when those hands will certainly fold here. If you check, those 2 hands might bet, which gets you more chips than just pushing. I'm pretty sure he's ahead here so why push a worse hand off?

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

if you are sure he is going to bet those hands, then yes check.
if he will check, afraid you have AK, then you are just giving him a free draw to beat you.

he also could have an A, and check that.

you have to be sure this guy will bet it.

just because you are ahead, doesn't mean you should slowplay.
slowplaying is good when you have crushed the deck or are against a pretty aggressive player.

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. There's 340K in dead money to pick up here and that would increase hero's stack by nearly 20%. Also, QQ will be tough to play out of position if you're called.

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I think I agree with Tyler here. While there's clearly things that don't happen as often if you push your QQ preflop, I think that looking at QQ and 16bb and thinking "I have 16bb I shouldn't push QQ" is a problem that happens to people who play a lot of party tournaments and never consider the antes. Hero's only got 6x pot = 6 orbits of money here. He isn't exactly grossly overbetting the pot by pushing preflop, and he is, as Tyler points out, picking up about 1/6 of his stack every time they they don't call. Hero's push will of course even be called often and be ahead, since his push isn't a gross overbet.

citanul

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

You have a lot of catching up to do. I don't recall the payouts for 7-9th but I would just push the flop unless I could pick up a read. Hopefully it gets on TV and hopefully he did have it.

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hero's push will of course even be called often and be ahead, since his push isn't a gross overbet.

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Excellent point. If you were any of the others sitting on AJ, AQ, or TT-JJ, would you call/push OTT with around 10mil in chips? I know I might with some of those hands.

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

I'm not really qualified to respond, but why not [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

With all those huge stacks left to act, you out of position the rest of the way if called, and approaching seriously short stack all-in time anyway (M=5.5), I can't see only raising to 400k with Queens. I want the blinds/antes, and I'd not be too scared if someone with anything other then AA or KK called me either, considering it a time to double up if they did call. If I ran into KK or AA or Ax,Kx and they hit, that's poker as people keep tellng me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I would think my queens are ahead in that spot and look to pick up a pot here.

Post-flop, why didn't you put out a continuation bet? Was the idea that any bet might cause him to push you all in and you'd fold regardless? I like the check-push post-flop as well, as others have said, representing AK perhaps to him given your table image...

Will be interesting to see if the hand makes TV and whether he had anything at all.

Oh, and congratulations on a great tourny!!

All in baby!
 

all in preflop.

1) if they all fold, they have too much respect for you, and after this hand that could change, leading to callers if you get another monster.

2) if they call, it's not a bad hand to go out on, considering how few orbits you can afford.

[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hero's push will of course even be called often and be ahead, since his push isn't a gross overbet.


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Excellent point. If you were any of the others sitting on AJ, AQ, or TT-JJ, would you call/push OTT with around 10mil in chips? I know I might with some of those hands

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Generally palyers with AJ-AQ or TT-JJ will reraise the short stack preflop anyway.

I don't see the QQ is difficult to play postflop with a standard raise. You pretty much want to be ready to put the rest of the money in whatever hit.

The only decision is if an ace hits. An AKx flop would be really bad. Also, if you got 2 callers and an ace hit. However, in general, you can play like you have the nuts on the flop.

I am a big movein artist, but I don't know if I like the push with such a strong hand. I would open push any day in this stituation with a lower pp or AJ-AK.

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have a lot of catching up to do. I don't recall the payouts for 7-9th but I would just push the flop unless I could pick up a read. Hopefully it gets on TV and hopefully he did have it.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's really sort of funny is that he's going to look strongly one way or another based on what the other guy had. Maybe that's not so funny.

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

On a flop of K62r, what hands is Tex capable of betting? It seems to me on such an open drawless board that, in position, Tex would be betting a lot more hands than Kx.

With that said, and the amount of money in the pot, I really want to get all my chips in the pot here, probably via a flop c/r allin

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

My first instinct is to push preflop especially since you are entering the blinds next hand. I don't like playing QQ OOP and I'm happy to pick up the blinds and antes with this hand given stack size.

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

Check raise!!! You got nothing to loose but double up.If he has a king (which I doubt) God bless him.

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

This hand was just the Holdem/Foldem on the WSOP final table episode if anyone was interested.

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
This hand was just the Holdem/Foldem on the WSOP final table episode if anyone was interested.

[/ QUOTE ]

I missed it, what happened?

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

Barch had AJ

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

i can't imagine folding this hand after commiting that much of my stack. I agree w/ Tyler too, the 350k in the pot is plenty, those antes are HUGE. you can't look at your situation as "16x BB" when the ante is like 1/7th the BB.

I'm getting all my money in preflop, but sincec you just raised to 400k, maybe check-pushing is the wya to go. Cause if you push, you're probaably only called by a K, but you can (as seen by Hold'em of Fold'em get him to bet w/ hands you beat if you check)

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

That's cruel, having suffered not knowing for a few months, you've now got to suffer knowing.

Congratulations nevertheless on the great cash.

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

Had no idea you were a 2+2er, congrats on the amazing showing, I hope you're back to stay.

I think Shaniac said it best, once you got QQ with that stack you have to know all the chips are going to end up in the middle, even on a K or A high flop.

Re: WSOP final table hand
 

I probably push preflop here.

You have enough chips to last for 6 orbits, which is equivalent to ~9xBB in terms of how long you can wait for another good hand.

Once you see that flop, I think check-raising is best, folding is an option but weak, and open pushing is terrible – you get no money from hands you’re ahead of and lose when you’re behind. You need to let Ax and mid pairs take a stab at it and might even be more likely to get weak K’s to fold.

Out of curiousity, what was the standard open raise to? Since there is $340 in the pot, your $400 bet is sort of like a typical Party tourney with blinds at 1k-2k and openraising for 3k or something so it seems very low, but then I don’t really play tourneys with antes much.

-g