Big pot poker
 

I don't post hands here very often but I think I'm going to try to put up 1 / week from now on. Hope this one is interesting.

Reads: Besides the pf raiser, this table is _very_ loose passive. The pf raiser is tight aggressive.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

I thought the pf call was ok with my BB discount. Is this a mistake?

Flop: (12.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>

What's your line here, and why?

Re: Big pot poker
 

Check and see what happens.

Re: Big pot poker
 

bet out flop, UTG might raise with his overs and you can face the field with 2 cold.

Re: Big pot poker
 

Normally I'd bet, but in this case check: so many limpers that one makes a straight. I mean, for sure. You're hand is not that strong yet. You (I) want to see the turn as cheaply as possible, so why bet and call a raise, when you can just check and call a bet.

Re: Big pot poker
 

To protect the hand?

Re: Big pot poker
 

I like the pf call.
I bet out on this flop. TPGK + BDFD is vulnerable, i want to protect my hand here. Maybe the pf raiser raises and it's going to be HU.
Is that reasoning correct? Protecting the hand, limiting the field?

Re: Big pot poker
 

I don't think it's you who should protect the hand, rather the pf raiser who should protect his. So he's gonna raise. The turn will tell you whether you're strong enough or not. Why not figuring that out for less money?

Re: Big pot poker
 

There's already 12 bets in the pot. Leading out with a bet will give people 13:1 and greater odds. So any draw with more than 3 outs will call here. In other words, betting here will not protect your hand.

If you want to protect your hand, check to the PF raiser and raise him. That'll give people 7.5:1 odds on their call, which might eliminate gutshots and other weak draws - although you never know with these people.

Re: Big pot poker
 

Deleted.

Flawed logic...

Re: Big pot poker
 

The PF-raise came from early position so going for the c/r is probably no good. Bet out - hope the PF-raiser raises again. In this case i`d reraise to punish drawing hands.
Preflop: easy call.

Re: Big pot poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
There's already 12 bets in the pot. Leading out with a bet will give people 13:1 and greater odds. So any draw with more than 3 outs will call here. In other words, betting here will not protect your hand.

If you want to protect your hand, check to the PF raiser and raise him. That'll give people 7.5:1 odds on their call, which might eliminate gutshots and other weak draws - although you never know with these people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? The raiser is to your immediate left. You check and the field will face just one bet; you bet and they could face two if UTG+1 raises. That's the only way they'll get 7.5:1.

Re: Big pot poker
 

grunch:

You have to protect, so I think the plan is to bet out and hope that UTG+1 is "smart" enough to raise his overcards, thus hitting the whole field for two cold.

I think your situation totally sucks though. It sounds like your protection isn't going to make anyone fold. On the turn and river, any card that doesn't improve you seems like an unsafe card. Not only that, but I wouldn't be surprised if you are behind to a loose passive overpair.

I'd say your best chance is to catch an 8,K or the miracle BD flush.

Re: Big pot poker
 

Oh, and bet the flop.

Re: Big pot poker
 

Whoops! I read it wrong. I read it as the raiser on the button.

Nevermind my comment.. nothing to see here...

Re: Big pot poker
 

I agree MATT here.

Re: Big pot poker
 

I really hate this "bet, hoping to get raised" thing. How many players, even TAG's are going to be raising with UI overs? If we bet, and get raised, yeah, we chase out flush draws, but then we're probably now going HU with an overpair.

I'm betting though, "hoping to get UTG+1 to fold", although it doubles as betting, "if UTG+1 raises, curse, and hope to catch running 8's"

EDIT - not sure if this is a leak or not, but if raised, my line for the hand if HU and UI, and with not-so-scary overs is C/C, Bet

EDIT2 - PF call is damn awesome

Re: Big pot poker
 

Grunching.
I'd definitely call this preflop, it's better than 11:1.

Flop: I have TPSK and a back-door flush draw. I bet, because there's a decent chance I'm ahead and I think that UTG+1 will raise and help me knock out a few players by facing them with 2 cold.

Re: Big pot poker
 

grunch

PF- easy call. Suited king with a not terrible kicker looks good to me.

Flop- I'd bet for protection. Since the PF aggressor was UTG+1, he'll likely raise right behind you, and the rest of the field will be seeing two bets cold. Thus, I think this protects your hand better than a C/R would. You need to protect because though you might have the best hand right now, any card higher than an 8 is an over, and anything under make straights much more likely.

Re: Big pot poker
 

Betting right out at the flop, because I have top pair and a backdoor 2nd nut flush draw. If UTG+1 raises, I call and re-evaluate on turn. I'd like to thin the field out a bit, and I can't use a checkraise due to my position relative to the preflop raiser. I'm not really hoping UTG+1 raises - heck, I'd like everyone to just fold to me now, lol - but if he does it's not a disaster.

Re: Big pot poker
 

Check-raising the PF raiser is the opposite of protecting your hand. All this does is tie weak draws to the pot that much more.

Re: Big pot poker
 

I'm going to have to disagree with your comment about hating the "bet, hoping to get raised" line. We have a very vulnerable hand. If we want to win the pot we have to protect it. Checking gives us no chance of hand protection. If we check and villian bets people will have odds to call with almost anything. Even if we could be behind to UTG we want to force people out. I'd rather have my pair of 8s in play heads-up than multiway.

I realize that you still advocate betting. But I don't think you should be frustrated if UTG raises. He probably improved your chances of winning the pot.

Re: Big pot poker
 

Yes it's true UTG+1 might not raise with overs, but what else should we do? Check/call and give everyone odds to draw to gutshots?

Betting may not get us what we want but is MUCH more likely to help than simply check/calling. Who knows, maybe one of the fish will have paired and might raise.

Re: Big pot poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it's you who should protect the hand, rather the pf raiser who should protect his. So he's gonna raise. The turn will tell you whether you're strong enough or not. Why not figuring that out for less money?

[/ QUOTE ]

You want the PF raiser to raise your flop bet. If I could somehow pass $0.50 to the PFR and tell the guy to raise me, I would. I desperately want to get raised immediately so I can force the field to call two cold.

Re: Big pot poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really hate this "bet, hoping to get raised" thing. How many players, even TAG's are going to be raising with UI overs? If we bet, and get raised, yeah, we chase out flush draws, but then we're probably now going HU with an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG+1 could flash me his AA and I would still bet hoping to get raised.

Re: Big pot poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
I realize that you still advocate betting. But I don't think you should be frustrated if UTG raises. He probably improved your chances of winning the pot.

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Are you raising in villians spot with UI overs no [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]'s? What about if you had a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]? I certainly am not. If villian raises here, we are drawing to 6.5 outs.

edited to recount outs

Re: Big pot poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I realize that you still advocate betting. But I don't think you should be frustrated if UTG raises. He probably improved your chances of winning the pot.

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Are you raising in villians spot with UI overs no [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]'s? What about if you had a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]? I certainly am not. If villian raises here, we are drawing to 5 outs.

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Exactly. The pot is big enough that we definitely want to continue with our 5-outer. So we try to clean up those outs by folding out hands that threaten us. Our chances of winning the pot increase.

Re: Big pot poker
 

Well I haven't read any posts yet (grunching) so..

Preflop call is fine. I'm betting out this flop. You have TPGK and by betting, you will hopefully induce a raise from UTG which will wipe out the field drawing to overcards to your pair or a weak draw. Of course, this puts you in the situation of wondering does UTG have you beat or not.

On a turn blank (any non-broadway) that is not a spade, I'd bet out again and fold to a raise. If it is a spade, I would call a raise and see the river and fold there UI.

Re: Big pot poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really hate this "bet, hoping to get raised" thing. How many players, even TAG's are going to be raising with UI overs? If we bet, and get raised, yeah, we chase out flush draws, but then we're probably now going HU with an overpair.

I'm betting though, "hoping to get UTG+1 to fold", although it doubles as betting, "if UTG+1 raises, curse, and hope to catch running 8's"

EDIT - not sure if this is a leak or not, but if raised, my line for the hand if HU and UI, and with not-so-scary overs is C/C, Bet

EDIT2 - PF call is damn awesome

[/ QUOTE ]

I mostly like your reasoning, and your c/c - bet a safe (not A, not Q, non-[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) turn line. However, I'm also going to play the nit. We're not chasing any flush draws away, ever. They're always with you to the end. We can hope to fold gutshots if the PFR raises, and that's about it.

Re: Big pot poker
 

There are situations in which we could be behind to UG but still have higher pot equity if he folds out the other four hands. I think Miller talks about this on page 149 of SSH. Although you are in position he advocates raising "even without the best hand"

edit: he says "even without the best hand you want many hands to fold"

Re: Big pot poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you raising in villians spot with UI overs no [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]'s? What about if you had a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]? I certainly am not. If villian raises here, we are drawing to 6.5 outs.

edited to recount outs

[/ QUOTE ]

I would want to raise here with OCs to clean up those outs, hoping to fold a hand like A5 or K4, and knock out people holding the gutshot straight.

Re: Big pot poker
 

Thanks for the replies everyone. I think the best play on this flop is to bet and hope that the pf raiser faces the field with 2 cold. Every caller at that point is probably making a mistake.

On the turn, I would check raise an 8 or a non diamond K, probably lead a K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], and check call almost any other card, depending on the action before it gets to me.

Re: Big pot poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
How many players, even TAG's are going to be raising with UI overs?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would most definitely raise if I was the in the pf raiser's position with overcards. I think it'd be a great chance to clean up overcard outs.

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT - not sure if this is a leak or not, but if raised, my line for the hand if HU and UI, and with not-so-scary overs is C/C, Bet

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this like. I assume you mean bet-fold on the river?

Re: Big pot poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the replies everyone. I think the best play on this flop is to bet and hope that the pf raiser faces the field with 2 cold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought there was a good amount of evidence in this thread for not to bet this flop no?

Re: Big pot poker
 

Good plan, except that I might donkbet an 8. That's a scary card for the rest of the field since you were representing an 8 on the flop, and I would be concerned about it getting checked through. It kind of depends on the number of players left and reads, though.

Re: Big pot poker
 

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We can hope to fold gutshots if the PFR raises, and that's about it.

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What about 5 outers? Does a typical 1/2 party donk fold a 5 outer in this scenario?

Re: Big pot poker
 

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[ QUOTE ]
How many players, even TAG's are going to be raising with UI overs?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would most definitely raise if I was the in the pf raiser's position with overcards. I think it'd be a great chance to clean up overcard outs.

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT - not sure if this is a leak or not, but if raised, my line for the hand if HU and UI, and with not-so-scary overs is C/C, Bet

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I like this like. I assume you mean bet-fold on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

nahh, i'd call, just betting to make sure the river doesn't get checked through

Re: Big pot poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the replies everyone. I think the best play on this flop is to bet and hope that the pf raiser faces the field with 2 cold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought there was a good amount of evidence in this thread for not to bet this flop no?

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I went through and read the thread again. It seemed like everyone was advocating betting the flop. Rev. Good Will didn't like the idea of betting with the hope of having the pf raiser raise, but he did say,




[ QUOTE ]
I'm betting though, "hoping to get UTG+1 to fold", although it doubles as betting, "if UTG+1 raises, curse, and hope to catch running 8's"

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I misinterpreting something?

Re: Big pot poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really hate this "bet, hoping to get raised" thing. How many players, even TAG's are going to be raising with UI overs? If we bet, and get raised, yeah, we chase out flush draws, but then we're probably now going HU with an overpair.

I'm betting though, "hoping to get UTG+1 to fold", although it doubles as betting, "if UTG+1 raises, curse, and hope to catch running 8's"

EDIT - not sure if this is a leak or not, but if raised, my line for the hand if HU and UI, and with not-so-scary overs is C/C, Bet

EDIT2 - PF call is damn awesome

[/ QUOTE ]

I mostly like your reasoning, and your c/c - bet a safe (not A, not Q, non-[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) turn line. However, I'm also going to play the nit. We're not chasing any flush draws away, ever. They're always with you to the end. We can hope to fold gutshots if the PFR raises, and that's about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wookie -- I think the link he is advocating is bet-call, and if it becomes heads up, check call the turn, bet the river.

Re: Big pot poker
 

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How many players, even TAG's are going to be raising with UI overs?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would most definitely raise if I was the in the pf raiser's position with overcards. I think it'd be a great chance to clean up overcard outs.

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT - not sure if this is a leak or not, but if raised, my line for the hand if HU and UI, and with not-so-scary overs is C/C, Bet

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this like. I assume you mean bet-fold on the river?

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nahh, i'd call, just betting to make sure the river doesn't get checked through

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me change my answer to C/C on the river.

Re: Big pot poker
 

bah, i don't know if i'm betting or checking, my line right now is to flip a coin.