-120 bbs in 12 hours ... WTF?
 

Title kinda says it all, huh?

I've perplexed. Every hand I started, I'd miss the flop. Every nut I'd chase would not materialize. Every boat sunk. Every low (and high!) was 3/4er'd. And when I did finally hit a hand that would scoop the pot ... I'd get no action.

Argh!

What makes this particularly damning is that every article I read tells my O8 is the simplest game to beat. But I'll be honest, I must have been sitting at the wrong tables at Party because there has been some tight play in the last couple days.

And this is at the 1/.5 level!

(Frustrated, I tightened up my hand list. Repeated that I would only play nut hands/draws. After a few hours of virtually no action ... I started a PLO8 table. I figured if I was going to wait all day for a premium hand ... it might as well have the potential for a big pay off.

Long story short: I played maybe 6 hands in 6 hours outside the blinds. Broke even.)

Anyway, I didn't think there were anyone but fish at the $1 table level ... but I was hard pressed to find any in the last 12 hours. Most flops were seen by 3-4 people, playing tight on the flop. Co-operation was common (trapping non-nut hands between raisers) and 3/4-ing was the norm.

Just wondering if all those articles talking about how easy O8 to beat is presupposes you are playing a very loose, live table. The online game might be a different ball of wax.

Or maybe I just really suck.

All thoughts appreciated, sorry for the rant.

Best,
Zim

(PS looking at my biggest losses and wins ... over the last 30 hours. There is a definite pattern. During the day at Party, I get my ass kicked. At night, I clean up. Coincidence?)

Re: -120 bbs in 12 hours ... WTF?
 

More people playing at night for entertainment and kicks, more people playing in the day trying to grind it out (even at low-limit Party, I know)

Re: -120 bbs in 12 hours ... WTF?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I played maybe 6 hands in 6 hours outside the blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]
WTF?

Re: -120 bbs in 12 hours ... WTF?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just wondering if all those articles talking about how easy O8 to beat is presupposes you are playing a very loose, live table. The online game might be a different ball of wax.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was a little depressed by this when I started playing O8 too. I don't think it is as easy as the articles say. Just like every other poker type I think that it takes some getting used to. It took me a little while to become a break even player and it took me even longer to produce a decent win rate and I am still working on figuring out how to really destroy the game.

[ QUOTE ]
I played maybe 6 hands in 6 hours outside the blinds

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that you may be playing a little too tight.

[ QUOTE ]
(PS looking at my biggest losses and wins ... over the last 30 hours. There is a definite pattern. During the day at Party, I get my ass kicked. At night, I clean up. Coincidence?)

[/ QUOTE ]
Party during the day is alway much tigher so you have to change your game. I always try to steal more little pots during the day when at night I almost never steal and am focused on winning 1 or 2 huge pots.

My main suggestion is to get Poker Tracker Ohmaha and after 2.5K hands or so post your numbers here. There are some very good players on this forum that can help you tweak your game.

Re: -120 bbs in 12 hours ... WTF?
 

It seems pretty obvious that you are playing weak-tight, though variance can play a big role. Post some hands from that session.

Realize that Omaha/8 is a different game against tight opponents, and not a profitable one for a beginner. .5/1 is usually a fishpool, but if you play the wrong tables you may be getting the worst of it.

Re: -120 bbs in 12 hours ... WTF?
 

It is very easy to go through a spell like this-- and very disconcerting. If you know PL08, day in day out you will beat the game. But if you get thrown out of sync by several bad beats, the losses can pile up for a day or two.

My advice, try to take a few baby steps, taking down profits from some tables, avoid going down early on any table and ride it out to get your confidence back. This is the most beatable game going online IMHO. I think the only thing better for a really good player is playing shorthanded or heads-up. When I get that good I'm poaching Wintermute's territory.

Re: -120 bbs in 12 hours ... WTF?
 

120 BBs? Don't cry over spilt milk.

Re: -120 bbs in 12 hours ... WTF?
 

Glad to see I'm not alone. I've been playing microlimit .25/.50 O8 at Absolute Poker and over the past week or two, I can't win to save my life. Fold almost everything. See eights and queens in every hand. Nary a suited ace. Then when I get a decent low hand, flop comes up all high or I'm counterfeited. When I get a decent high hand, flop comes up all low.

Frustrating to say the least. I'd be tempted to rant about it being rigged if not for the fact I know AP isn't interested in stealing my measly $35 bankroll and if I did, you'd all berate me.

Anyway, I've given up on AP, been playing (and winning) at Ultimate Bet, and planning on starting a Party Poker bankroll to see if this O8 amphibian can nab some fishies.

Re: -120 bbs in 12 hours ... WTF?
 

6 hands in 6 hours seems a bit excessive even to a known rock like me.

Definitely play at night more often if possible. Plenty of gambOOOOOOolers then.

Re: -120 bbs in 12 hours ... WTF?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Glad to see I'm not alone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Phew, there's more of us.

I just attributed the downswing to my recent cashout from party, which is invariably followed by 2 weeks of dead cards
You know, the whole 'online poker=rigged' thingy... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Here are some stats ...
 

Thanks, everyone, for your feedback.

I just downloaded a free trial of PokerTracker, it only tracks 1000 hands, which I know is a useless sample size to analyze, but even so ... here are the stats from my bad spell:


----------------------------------------------------

.50/1.00 Omaha Hi-Lo Limit

Total hands: 819
Vol. put in pot: 22.47%
Vol. put in money from SB: 29.25%
Won $ WSF: 24.35%
Amount: -$72.97
BB/100 Hands: -8.91
Went to SD: 40.22%
Won $ at SD: 50.46%
PF raise: 1.46% (this rather surprises me, Weak-tight?)
Hi/Lo won: 6.23% (Hi)
Hi/Lo won: 2.44% (Lo)
Hi/Lo Scoop: 4.15%
PF aggr. factor: .07
Flop aggr. factor: .40
Turn aggr. factor: .74
River aggr. factor: 1.32
Total aggr. factor: .39
Folded SB to steal: 0
Folded BB to steal: 0
Attempt to steal blind: 0

----------------------------------------------

I'm not sure if this tells you anything, but what I do find curious is my weak limping, followed by increased aggression as the game went on. If I was running so bad ... shouldn't the agression go DOWN on each street?

I can partly explain this by mentioning I am very fond of betting strong draws ... but that doesn't explain the river aggression.

Overal analysis: Weak tight preflopper / post-floper steamer?

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Best,
Zim

(PS Regarding the 6 hands in 6 hours for PLO8. As I am a Limit player, that was an experiment. I read an article over at Pokermafia talking about how premium hands consisted only of 4 co-ordinated low cards, or 4 co-ordinated hi-cards, no-pairs. So I took that advice literally. Those hands don't come by very often ...)

(PPS I come from a low stakes, NL background. After my abysmal Omaha lark ... I jumped back into the $25NL tables at Party and pumped the Omaha br back up again.I feel a little dirty ... but what can you do? Also of note, I can't say for certain, but all this talk of waiting for nut hands seems to have improved my NL game ... go figure.)

Re: Here are some stats ...
 

These stats are reasonable for someone starting out. You have the basics (i.e. tight play) down pretty well, although you play a few too many hands and play them too passively preflop and postflop (not huge leaks at this level, though preflop raising is very profitable in the multiway pots). On top of that, you seem to showdown too much (small sample size, but with experience this will naturally decrease).

Thing is, you can't teach the aggression (i.e. raising and folding) until you get a feel for which sort of hands and draws are "good", and which are trash. In another 1000 hands you'll improve, almost by default. keep playing.

Rest assured, you aren't even close to a -8 BB/100 player.

Re: Here are some stats ...
 

It all looks good except

[ QUOTE ]
Went to SD: 40.22%
Won $ at SD: 50.46%

[/ QUOTE ]
Granted this is a very small sample size but you are going to showdown way too much. You want to push your W$SD above 60 which will naturally push down your WtSD.

Currently for .5/1 my WtSD is 29.8 and my W$SD is 61.08. Not saying that those are perfect number or that you can't win with a lower W$SD but for a beginner I think that increasing your W$SD will increase your overall BB/100

Also I agree with sy. Numbers don’t always show everything but I would be extremely surprised if you run -9BB/100 over the long run.

Re: -120 bbs in 12 hours ... WTF?
 

I read all the time about how Party has tightened up. I just started playing at Paradise this week, and it's been just exactly that. Lots of action, flop %'s regularly over 50% (sometimes over 60%), at $1/.5. My goal is to make back all the $$ I lost while I have been learning. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Here are some stats ...
 

I come from a PL background, but I think Goop is right on the money.
[ QUOTE ]
Went to SD: 40.22%
Won $ at SD: 50.46%


[/ QUOTE ]

Fix this and your game will improve-- you aggression number will probably go up to because you will be folding instead of calling on hands that you are currently losing.

Thanks Sy, Mend and Goop ...
 

Nice handles, guys.

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The feedback really lifted my spirits, thanks a bundle. I didn't THINK I was a -9/BB player ...

Crunching some numbers, it seems that in a typical game of about 40 hands per hour, seeing only about 20% of the flops, and going to the showdown only 30% of the time ...

The tight player will only play about 8 hands an hour, and of that only see 2-3 showdowns.

So a beginner should really only see a showdown about once every 20-30 minutes of play. This really puts into perspective the sort of game I should be playing right now.

Thanks again, guys

Best,
Zim

(ps All online resource links are appreciated. One of my biggest stumbling blocks -aside from not folding on the flop- is figuring out the odds on all the various draws. But I suppose I should only be concerning myself with the nut draws, huh?)

Thanks, Bo!
 

I swung by Paradise ...

It's as good as you say.

All the best,
Zim

Re: Thanks Sy, Mend and Goop ...
 

Multi-table.