Stats post for 6max players
 

I have been beating the 2/4NL 6max on Party for 4-5BB/100 for some time now. I feel like I am hitting a wall in terms of improving my game, though. I don't need any money now, so I am taking most of August off to improve my game. I am reading Harrington's books, and now I'm asking for help from players who have been beating the 2/4 to 5/10 6max games. I want to do this by seeing if most people play these following hands different from me.

1) UTG (3 off the button in PT) in a 6max game, what is your VP$IP% and PFR% for the following hands?

(A) ATs
(B) AJo
(C) 22
(D) QTs
(E) 98s
(F) For comparative purposes, also post your overall VP$IP% and PFR%

2) You raise to $16 from the button before the flop with AJo. You are called by the small blind, who is a typical 2/4NL player (VP$IP 39 PFR 10, average agg. postflop). How often do you bet the following flops? Assume no backdoor draws. (A) Qs 6d 4h (B) 9d 8d 2s (C) 7h 6h 5h

3) What is your showdown winning percentage?

I know this is a good deal of work, but I'm hoping this can spark a discussion and help a lot of people on this forum, not just me. I will also post my stats after the thread develops... thanks for the help.

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

This whole post is kinda dumb imo, b/c there is no "correct" strategy for NL, so high PFR & VPIP works for some, and "relative" nut peddling works for others; just depends on your style. But I'll post anyways.

1) A lot depends on how table is...if it's really tight, I'd raise every hand there, but if it's really loose passive, I probably limp all of them but maybe raise 22 a small amount to juice pot. If it's LAG, I raise 22 and muck the rest. Don't have any stats. I'd assume 22 is 100% and the other 3 are pretty low, with 98s being the lowest (drawing hands oop are death)

2) both depends on specific opponent (if he will let me check hands down, I chk down A, but bet B)... but as a general rule, firing one barrell on both flops is probably good (don't need a full pot).

3) dunno

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

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This whole post is kinda dumb imo, b/c there is no "correct" strategy for NL, so high PFR & VPIP works for some

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

Keep in mind I haven't been playing 6max as long as others, but I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of what is going on. I am running at 23/12 over several 1000 hands, others in this forum deviate by +/-4 for both. I raise ATs, AJo, and 98s if I am going to play it, I fold it otherwise. I limp 22, and QTs is dependent on how the table is playing. Obviously conditions are totally dependent on your opponents, I often seek out games where lots of the players are too loose and too aggressive (I'm attracted to huge pots), causing me to fold more early and play more later. If you find a rock garden table, I raise all of these hands, it's completely player dependent. Try not to establish rules.

2) This is also dependent on the player, but I probably pot every flop.

3) 57%, but again, I'm sure my sample size is too small.

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

[ QUOTE ]
This whole post is kinda dumb imo, b/c there is no "correct" strategy for NL

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
agreed.

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

you muck ATs pf?

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

[ QUOTE ]
This whole post is kinda dumb imo, b/c there is no "correct" strategy for NL, so high PFR & VPIP works for some, and "relative" nut peddling works for others; just depends on your style. But I'll post anyways.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is obvious to anyone who cal beat the $400 max for 5BB/100.

I disagree with those that think that these types of analyses (pfrz and flp % seen of hands) are totally unhelpful, given that the analyzer understands the above.

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

I'll post my own in hopes that others will follow.

Recently started playing more aggro....only 29k hands since then,so small sample


ATs - VPIP 100% rz 100%

AJo - 100%, 100%

22 - 100%, 100%

QTs - 100%, 50%

98s - 100%, 77%

VPIP 22%, PFR 11%

I minirz a lot pf, so looks are a bit deceiving here.

2. Probably upwards of 80%, I think should be lower.

3. Godawful. 50.33%

Mind posting your own stats?

I am pretty sure my showdown % is holding back my winrate....those great river calls, bleh

Postflop Aggression, I am curious where I am comparatively.

AF 2.91
flop 4.44
turn 2.03
river 0.95

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

[ QUOTE ]
winrate....those great river calls, bleh

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you put the otherguy on missed-draw bluff too? [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

[ QUOTE ]
I probably limp all of them

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

1.A-E I raise to $15 on all of them usually, A-C for sure, D-E depending on the table.

2. Heads up Im betting 3/4 of the pot a big % of the time, it gets people to play back at me, but sometimes I have the nuts and it makes the pots nice and big. But this also depends on the table.

3. Dunno, I played the game for about a month before moving up as I was already bankrolled for the game, and played about 30k hands for 8-9ptbb/100 hands (exact # got messed up b/c of all the damn empire dc's last 1-2 months). I played a couple times with you, and a ton with vanveen who I usually try to avoid but hes on like 6-8 tables so its not that easy to do.

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

i agree with warlock. im also 22/11 exactly.

[ QUOTE ]
I'll post my own in hopes that others will follow.

Recently started playing more aggro....only 29k hands since then,so small sample


ATs - VPIP 100% rz 100%

AJo - 100%, 100%

22 - 100%, 100%

QTs - 100%, 50%

98s - 100%, 77%

VPIP 22%, PFR 11%

I minirz a lot pf, so looks are a bit deceiving here.

2. Probably upwards of 80%, I think should be lower.

3. Godawful. 50.33%

Mind posting your own stats?

I am pretty sure my showdown % is holding back my winrate....those great river calls, bleh

Postflop Aggression, I am curious where I am comparatively.

AF 2.91
flop 4.44
turn 2.03
river 0.95

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

[ QUOTE ]

3. Godawful. 50.33%


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This is not godawful, esp for 29k and the party 400 crowd.

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

What kind of a flop are you looking for when you are raising with AJo? I try to find an argument for raising with it but I only come up with blind stealing.

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

What kind of flop are you looking for with any 2 cards? I have a good hand, but I have the worst position, if I'm playing it, I'm raising. I have to fold to a raise anyway. I don't complain everytime I raise it UTG and just pick up the blinds....

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

I'm 24/11 fwiw. I agree it's not important, but it's sort of interesting to see different ranges. so far there's not nearly as much variety as I though.

--turnipmonster

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

I'm 33/10, but I play 8-9 handed more often than 6max, and when I do play 6max, I look for the passive games where I can see lots of cheap flops.

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

vpip 33, pfr around 7.5% for all 6 max over 35k hands. is my pfr ridiculously low?

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

1)
AJ & ATs 100% raise
22 100% limp
Normally muck 98s and QTs (although can limp if game good)

OVERALL 19/9

2)
I will bet flops A and B 99%, and flop C 70%. Although I think you should bet flop A more than flop B (easier to represent Q than overpair)

3)
Showdown wins 67%

Interested to see nearly everyone has higher PFR% than me. Must be the SC and small pairs.

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

a very large % of my pfr is from opening in the CO or button with whatever.

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

seems like if an ace flops, you may be up against AQ/AK, or if a jack flops there may be overcards and someone may have a overpair. am i too pessimistic?

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

Yes.

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

[ QUOTE ]
seems like if an ace flops, you may be up against AQ/AK, or if a jack flops there may be overcards and someone may have a overpair. am i too pessimistic?

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A very large % of the time, you pick up the blinds.

A large % of the time, both you and your opponent miss the flop, and you pick up the pot with a reasonably-sized continuation bet. I have no problem taking AJ against AK as long as I know my opponent has AK.

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

Warlock, thanks man, appreciate the help. Yeah, obviously I'm not going to totally model my play exactly after a certain player.

However, these stats are very useful to me, for the reason that I figure, if my VP$IP is 23 and yours is too, and you play a very different mix of hands than me, perhaps I'm undervaluing/overvaluing the importance of position, suitedness, or certain types of hands. This is why I asked VERY specific questions (#3 wasn't really, I guess) rather than just VP$IP, PFR, etc.

Here are my stats:

1) ATs: VP 100% PFR 87%
AJo: VP 98% PFR 71%
22: VP 95% PFR 32%
QTs: VP 94% PFR 72%
98s: VP 19% PFR 13%

Overall: VPIP 22% PFR 9%

2. The first 2 flops I am firing near 100% of the time. I generally bet near the size of the pot, which may be too much. The 3rd flop I'll bet about 60-70% of the time against an average player.

3. 47.82%... I am even worse than you here. This is a main thing holding my game back.

AGGRESSION STATS:
AF 2.50
Flop 2.79
Turn 2.36
River 1.92

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

Also I didn't mean to single out warlock, thanks to everyone who posted stats/help here. I didn't mean to make it seem as if I'm trying to take everyone's stats at face value (this WOULD be pointless), I'm just trying to compare various strategies.

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

I agree that this is kind of dumb too.

I mean c'mon...

As pointed out b4, some games are looser, some are tighter, some are more aggressive, some are more passive... and all this affects your hand selection and betting. And if it doesn't, well then maybe you've got something else to think about...

This also doesn't even take into account things like game selection. Some people are pickier than others when it comes to choosing what kinds of games you want to play in. Some people prefer shorthanded games, some people prefer full games. So that will affect things like % of flops seen blah blah blah. I could go on but you get the point.

You know what they say - bulldust baffles brains!

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

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I agree that this is kind of dumb too.

I mean c'mon...

As pointed out b4, some games are looser, some are tighter, some are more aggressive, some are more passive... and all this affects your hand selection and betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I asked for VP$IP and PFR percentages for the hands... they average in every kind of game that the player plays in. I know how the 2/4NL Party games play, as a whole; therefore this data is useful to me. Do you see why?

[ QUOTE ]
This also doesn't even take into account things like game selection. Some people are pickier than others when it comes to choosing what kinds of games you want to play in. Some people prefer shorthanded games, some people prefer full games. So that will affect things like % of flops seen blah blah blah. I could go on but you get the point.

You know what they say - bulldust baffles brains!

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

This paragraph is sort of a good point. However, I have to imagine stats will converge somewhat over the long run. Although I'd like to play against 5 dumb LAGs every night, I can't. Also, I asked people to give me their stats from 3 off the button in 6max NL games; doing a little brief math will show you that this is sort of impossible if the game isn't full.

I'm kind of surprised at how many people are missing the point of this post, actually. If you know how to interpret this data it can actually serve some use. An extrapolation of this assertion can be found in my prior response to warlockjd.

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

[ QUOTE ]
What kind of a flop are you looking for when you are raising with AJo?

[/ QUOTE ]

Flop irrelevant to me here. If he doesn't fold tho, I start playing poker

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

As you (or was it Hinson, I mix you guys up) told VV when he was running bad a few months back, the key to improving your game is to 2 table and play more aggresssively than you have ever played bf.


Up till the 2/4 max level, I am convinced this is the truth.

You will be utterly amazed at the quality increase in your reads....at least I am.....

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

I like this post.



[/ QUOTE ]

(F) For comparative purposes, also post your overall VP$IP% and PFR%
28, 9

2) You raise to $16 from the button before the flop with AJo. You are called by the small blind, who is a typical 2/4NL player (VP$IP 39 PFR 10, average agg. postflop). How often do you bet the following flops? Assume no backdoor draws. (A) Qs 6d 4h (B) 9d 8d 2s (C) 7h 6h 5h

99%

3) What is your showdown winning percentage?
54%

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

if you arent in a passive enough game at the 400/600 level where you can play more than 22% of hands your game selection sucks

28/15, showndowns at over 52%

i dont play 98, thats really dumb

i limp reraise like a fiend

im tired of going set under set i muck 22 OOP, i go broke occassionally with sets what can i say

i hate small suited cards i cant fold flopped flushes to these morons

HOWEVER, i make my money with sets and straights, noone bets enough on the turn to price out draws and then they call overbets with top pair no kick

limp with connectors and single gappers all day

i call small raises in multiway pots too, the odds are just too sweet

so thats why im looseeerrrrrrrr

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

LOL, yes, AJ is a good 6 max hand man, especially if you're viewed to be aggressive post flop, flops like J22 will get players with 88 to call your flop bet of 3/4 pot, check check turn (in positon only does this play work, like the bb calls your pfr), then overbet pot on river and they put you on AK, there's one flop I like [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] and one play I like to go with it

Re: Stats post for 6max players
 

22/15. I don't like to open-limp unless there are some super loosies to my left.