Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

Hello all,

Ive just played my usual session of limit just for relax. Besides that I donated little money to 5/10 regulars I came across this problem :

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 folds.

River: (7 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

How's my play ? Is calling a raise with this hand ok or bad ? Is calling down line ok ? or should I raise and fold to 3bet somewhere ? Villain seems pretty standard, didnt make anything strange yet but I dont exactly know what his raising hand range is here; assume its standard for 5/10 (whatever that mean).
Thanks for help

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

hand was played way too passively
preflop call is fine IMO, but need to either c/r teh flop or the turn. that was u have a better way of knowing where you're at.

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
hand was played way too passively
preflop call is fine IMO, but need to either c/r teh flop or the turn. that was u have a better way of knowing where you're at.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

im check-raising the flop

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

Hmm I would like to know what my standard plan should be here. Checkraise flop and fold after 3bet and turn bet ?
Checkraise flop and bet if only called ?

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol

[/ QUOTE ]

not very constructive.. i dont see the point in posts like these.

i'd c/r flop and if just called, lead out on the turn. fold if he raises on the turn.

if he 3bets the flop then i'd call and then fold to a bet on the turn if unimproved.

however, AT is not a very +EV hand against a raise so i'd play it as carefully as i could. (i cant help the c/r though. maybe this is why my AF is &gt;3!)

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

I would have folded preflop. (I don't like ATs versus a raise very much.) However, MP3 could be trying to isolate MP1, and you are at least suited, so I don't think the call is terrible, from the SB.

Postflop seems all right to me, really. The pot's only 3-way, and if you're ahead, MP1 probably doesn't have much chance of outdrawing you anyway, on that flop, so putting pressure on him doesn't seem all that essential to me. And you're probably either way ahead or way behind MP3.

Checkraising the flop could be a way to try to figure out which it is, but doing so also provides information for MP3. And if, for instance, you checkraise the flop and get called and then get popped on the turn, you've only saved one small bet over just calling down, at the cost of giving up your chance to spike your kicker on the river (which would be worth about one SB at the moment when you'd be folding).

If your checkraise gets 3-bet, then that could save you money if you then check-fold the turn unimproved. But MP3 won't necessarily cooperate like this. And while I don't think your opponent will 3-bet with a hand like QQ and then fire again on the turn particularly often, it will happen occasionally and will cost you money when it does.

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hand was played way too passively
preflop call is fine IMO, but need to either c/r teh flop or the turn. that was u have a better way of knowing where you're at.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[/ QUOTE ]

why would you post this?

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

I'll bite. I don't like the call preflop, but it's close. I'm probably folding unless this player is a very aggressive preflop raiser or has made more than his share of attempts to steal blinds.

Assuming I'm playing the hand, I definitely check raise the flop and lead out on the turn if not 3 bet on the flop. If 3 bet on the flop, I call and check-fold unimproved on the turn.

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

The title, being dominated sucks, gives away the ending or is very misleading.

I have a tough time understanding why calling down is a better line. But if you're going to do that, then how about c/c c/c b/f?

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

Thanks for this analysis. I think I am slowly getting proper lines I should be thinking along while playing thanks to posts like these.
Also from other response :

[ QUOTE ]
But if you're going to do that, then how about c/c c/c b/f?


[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know maybe its better line. I think I have some hopes that Villain wont value bet with AJ and only hand that is calling my bet and not betting the river is A8s (wihch is not very probable I think)

Btw. Is call/call/fold line ridiculous ?

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
The title, being dominated sucks, gives away the ending or is very misleading.

I have a tough time understanding why calling down is a better line. But if you're going to do that, then how about c/c c/c b/f?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think c/c c/c b/f is another line to consider here. I personally don't use it as much as many of the posters here, but that could be to my detriment. In any event, though, I don't think I'd want to bet-fold the river without a read.

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Btw. Is call/call/fold line ridiculous ?

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be a pretty read-based line to take. You'd really need to have a pretty good idea that MP3 would not value-bet on the river with, say, JJ or KQ but would instead take a free showdown, after having been called on the flop and turn. Also, there are players who will fire that last barrel with, say, QJs.

(And one potential drawback of checkraising the flop, by the way, is that it could blow MP3 off of a hand like KQ that has hardly any chance against you at all.)

RESULTS
 

I gave it away by the title of the thread. He showe AJo and he took the pot.
Thanks all for comments. I still dont have much feel for these games, for example I dont know if many Villains would bet 3 times with sth worse than top pair.
Preflop comments... I think I will fold it next time.

Best wishes

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

That's why I don't like the PF call. Unless you hit a flush draw your options are to C/R the flop winning the minimum from KK. Lose a decent amount to an aggressive KK that pushes you off a better hand. Lose 2.5 BB postflop when calling down and being dominated. Win 1.5BB from KK postflop. If you do make a flush there are not many players to build a pot.

If there were a bunch of CC'ers between you and PF raiser it may be more correct because of the flush potential but then we are even more concerned about domination(unless we are talking about loose CC'ers)so I'm not really sure what would be correct then.

FWIW, I do make this call with AQo (unless PF raiser is a rock)and just C/call the whole way. Is this bad??

If you were in the BB then I would make the call at a 50% discount.

In summary, I don't think the call is super bad, but I think it is a $$ loser in the longrun.

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hand was played way too passively
preflop call is fine IMO, but need to either c/r teh flop or the turn. that was u have a better way of knowing where you're at.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[/ QUOTE ]

why would you post this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the suggested line and supporting reasoning is rubbish.

This hand is trivial to play. Fold preflop but if you insist on calling then the correct line is check/call, check/call, bet/fold unless Hero improves to aces and tens.

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hand was played way too passively
preflop call is fine IMO, but need to either c/r teh flop or the turn. that was u have a better way of knowing where you're at.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[/ QUOTE ]

why would you post this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahahaha. I would assume because of the line suggested. Preflop really depends on your opponent. But most of the time, it is a fold.

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
correct line is check/call, check/call, bet/fold unless Hero improves to aces and tens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think that's more probable that some QQ/JJ/A8 will call final bet than AQ/AJ miss final value bet ?

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
correct line is check/call, check/call, bet/fold unless Hero improves to aces and tens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think that's more probable that some QQ/JJ/A8 will call final bet than AQ/AJ miss final value bet ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you meet my ex-girlfriend.

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

I would fold pre-flop and thank myself when he shows AQ and takes the pot.

However, since I misclicked "Call", this seems like your quintessential "Way ahead, way behind" scenario; given your position and a drawless board, the standard line for me there is check-call the flop, check-call the turn, bet the river and fold to a raise.

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think that's more probable that some QQ/JJ/A8 will call final bet than AQ/AJ miss final value bet ?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I hope you meet my ex-girlfriend.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have only slight idea who your ex-gf was (OOT forum) but I suspect that's mean that the answer for my question is too obvious to give it ? (Or is it your love to all kind of puzzles ...)

Best wishes [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you think that's more probable that some QQ/JJ/A8 will call final bet than AQ/AJ miss final value bet ?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I hope you meet my ex-girlfriend.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have only slight idea who your ex-gf was (OOT forum) but I suspect that's mean that the answer for my question is too obvious to give it ? (Or is it your love to all kind of puzzles ...)

Best wishes [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

The brilliance behind the c/c, c/c, b/f line is that you lose the least when you're behind, make the most when you're ahead and never fold the best hand because you c/r and he 3-bet with a worse hand.

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you think that's more probable that some QQ/JJ/A8 will call final bet than AQ/AJ miss final value bet ?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I hope you meet my ex-girlfriend.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have only slight idea who your ex-gf was (OOT forum) but I suspect that's mean that the answer for my question is too obvious to give it ? (Or is it your love to all kind of puzzles ...)

Best wishes [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

The brilliance behind the c/c, c/c, b/f line is that you lose the least when you're behind, make the most when you're ahead and never fold the best hand because you c/r and he 3-bet with a worse hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

/thread

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

Easy pre flop fold if you ask me. You are out of position and the game is 9-handed. Bet the flop and fold to a raise. If called on the flop, check the turn and fold to a bet. But I suck at poker, so what do I know.

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

YSSCKY

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
The brilliance behind the c/c, c/c, b/f line is that you lose the least when you're behind, make the most when you're ahead and never fold the best hand because you c/r and he 3-bet with a worse hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I understand the point of this line. But it only works if B is more probable than A where :
A - (he miss his value bet with AQ or AJ) or (he decides to fire 3rd barell with QQ/JJ/A8)
B - he will call river bet with QQ/JJ/A8

Iam not sure its the case here.

Best wishes

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The brilliance behind the c/c, c/c, b/f line is that you lose the least when you're behind, make the most when you're ahead and never fold the best hand because you c/r and he 3-bet with a worse hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I understand the point of this line. But it only works if B is more probable than A where :
A - (he miss his value bet with AQ or AJ) or (he decides to fire 3rd barell with QQ/JJ/A8)
B - he will call river bet with QQ/JJ/A8

Iam not sure its the case here.

Best wishes




[/ QUOTE ]

He'll call your bet with worse hands a lot. If you don't bet, he'll check behind with worse hands that would have called a bet a lot. By checking, you allow him to check behind is worse hands that would have called, but value bet you with his better hands.

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
im check-raising the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im check-raising the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

omg

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im check-raising the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

omg

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

I'm not sure about the flop call. Since there is another player already in, if you have confidence he will come along it's alright. I don't like calling raises with this hand in this position .

After the flop you have to take some action at some point. I think the c/r is probably best. If he 3 bets you need to call and c/f the turn, unless you catch a 10 or a spade.

Just calling down is really weak. If you have the best hand and you are losing value and letting people draw on you cheap. If you don't have the best hand you have no way of knowing and are just contributing aimlessly.

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

Against a PFR, I'm folding this puppy. Yeah, you have nut flush if 3 spades show up, but the odds (PF) are you won't make it.

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just calling down is really weak. If you have the best hand and you are losing value and letting people draw on you cheap. If you don't have the best hand you have no way of knowing and are just contributing aimlessly.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to rethink this--most of the people who posted in this thread do. What happens when we raise when we're ahead? What happens when we raise when we're behind?

I agree with folding pre-flop.

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

I really so no reason to raise much of anywhere in this hand. I think it should be pretty obvious why. I'm surprised so many people advocate a check-raise. What do you expect it to accomplish?

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
correct line is check/call, check/call, bet/fold unless Hero improves to aces and tens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think that's more probable that some QQ/JJ/A8 will call final bet than AQ/AJ miss final value bet ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you meet my ex-girlfriend.

[/ QUOTE ]

Math students don't have girlfriends.

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just calling down is really weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome. So we've already used one tired, incorrect cliche that constantly appears on these boards in this thread: "[raise so you have a] better way of knowing where you're at" and here's a second: "[not raising] is really weak." Why don't you guys try to "outplay him postflop too?"

Better yet, minimize the number of bets you put in when you're behind and maxmize the number you make when you're ahead. You have to think about villain's range of hands here and what line you can take that will acheive this: keep him from folding a worse hand when you're ahead and keep from putting in lots of bets when behind. You don't need to raise for information; you already know you're crushed or crushing and what are you going to do with this extra information that might save you .5 SB? Fold? Taking passive lines is okay; you have to find the line that maximizes your overall EV against his range of hands. That is how you outplay someone postflop.

Now please, stop wasting bets to get information, realize that it's okay to call sometimes and start understanding the keys to limit hold'em.

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

[ QUOTE ]

Math students don't have girlfriends.

[/ QUOTE ]

Speak for yourself. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Awesome. So we've already used one tired, incorrect cliche that constantly appears on these boards in this thread: "[raise so you have a] better way of knowing where you're at" and here's a second: "[not raising] is really weak." Why don't you guys try to "outplay him postflop too?"

Better yet, minimize the number of bets you put in when you're behind and maxmize the number you make when you're ahead. You have to think about villain's range of hands here and what line you can take that will acheive this: keep him from folding a worse hand when you're ahead and keep from putting in lots of bets when behind. You don't need to raise for information; you already know you're crushed or crushing and what are you going to do with this extra information that might save you .5 SB? Fold? Taking passive lines is okay; you have to find the line that maximizes your overall EV against his range of hands. That is how you outplay someone postflop.

Now please, stop wasting bets to get information, realize that it's okay to call sometimes and start understanding the keys to limit hold'em.


[/ QUOTE ]
vnh.

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just calling down is really weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome. So we've already used one tired, incorrect cliche that constantly appears on these boards in this thread: "[raise so you have a] better way of knowing where you're at" and here's a second: "[not raising] is really weak." Why don't you guys try to "outplay him postflop too?"

Better yet, minimize the number of bets you put in when you're behind and maxmize the number you make when you're ahead. You have to think about villain's range of hands here and what line you can take that will acheive this: keep him from folding a worse hand when you're ahead and keep from putting in lots of bets when behind. You don't need to raise for information; you already know you're crushed or crushing and what are you going to do with this extra information that might save you .5 SB? Fold? Taking passive lines is okay; you have to find the line that maximizes your overall EV against his range of hands. That is how you outplay someone postflop.

Now please, stop wasting bets to get information, realize that it's okay to call sometimes and start understanding the keys to limit hold'em.

[/ QUOTE ]

thank you for this post. i still have a lot to learn...

Re: Another limit adventure - fundamentals : being dominated sucks
 

While I do understand the reasons behind the passive line.

Why is ATs a fold from SB...?

Is it a fold to any raise.. (openraise from MP/LP that could be a steal)

or is it a fold b/c there already is one limper in this hand..?

I'm calling this and going with the passive line here, but If fold is the better EV move then tell why that is...?