Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

I know partygirluk already posted about this at the bottom of the original thread but it seems to me it's worth its own new thread for all those who were so quick to blame this man for his own death.



Met accused over shooting confusion

Julia Day
Wednesday August 17, 2005

Confusion surrounding last month's fatal shooting of Brazilian electrician Jean Charles de Menezes - who was mistaken for a suicide bomber - could have been alleviated by the Metropolitan police, according to journalists covering the story.

Leaked documents and photographs obtained by ITV News yesterday revealed that some information given by police and witnesses at the time of the Stockwell underground shooting, and in the immediate aftermath, was incorrect.

Early media reports of the circumstances surrounding the killing of Mr de Menezes on July 22 were pieced together from police statements and eyewitness accounts.

But journalists working on the story believe the police should have corrected erroneous witness statements.

"Initially a lot of information was from civilian witnesses, there was a lot of confusion. But the police didn't do anything to clear up the confusion," said the Guardian's Rosie Cowan, who has been covering the story.

"[Metropolitan Police commissioner] Sir Ian Blair said [Mr Menezes] didn't stop when challenged and it wasn't until 4.30pm the next day that the police said they had shot an innocent man," Cowan added.

"I feel the [police] people I was speaking to didn't appear to be properly briefed up and you would have thought they could have been," she added.

Evening Standard journalist Matheus Sanchez, who has been dealing directly with Mr de Menezes' family in Brazil, said: "The family clearly think the police have changed their story.

"It's hard to say where the witness statements end and the police statements begin. What seems to have happened was that men seen running and vaulting the barriers by witnesses were actually the cops."

Another reporter who has worked on the story said that eyewitnesses were very shaken at the time and although they were not purposely making things up, things may not have been as they perceived them to be, and the police statements did not help matters.

Reports the day after the shooting quote the Met's statement that "a man was challenged by officers and was subsequently shot".

Sir Ian was also quoted as saying that the "shooting is directly linked to the ongoing and expanding anti-terrorist operation...I understand the man was challenged and refused to obey. I can't go any further than that at this stage."

Eyewitness accounts printed in the newspapers provided details about a man seen running and vaulting over the tube barriers wearing a padded jacket. Other witnesses said he was an Asian man with a bomb and wires protruding from a heavy jacket.

The police statements and eye-witness accounts given by those traumatised by seeing a man killed together formed what became the accepted account of the day: that a suspect had been warned by the police, ignored the challenge, vaulted over the barriers and ran off into Stockwell tube station wearing a padded jacket.

From the leaked ITV documents and photos from the Independent Police Complaints Commission investigation into the shooting, a completely different story has emerged.

Mr de Menezes was never properly identified; he was unaware he was being followed; he was wearing a denim, not a bulky jacket; he did not run from police and did not jump over the barrier, according to the information leaked to ITV News.

A spokeswoman for the IPCC said that the organisation operates a high level of security that was regularly reviewed and, in any case, it was not necessarily from within its confines that the leaked documents came.

"We are not the only organisation to hold these documents, it is not clear where they came from. We still do not know," she added.

The spokeswoman said the IPCC was refusing to confirm whether the documents were genuine, but added: "We're not accusing ITV of making it up, though."

Last night, as the ITV News story was breaking on ITV1's 6.30pm bulletin, the IPCC published a statement on its website: "The IPCC investigation into the shooting of Mr de Menezes is continuing. Our priority is to disclose any findings direct to the family, who will clearly be distressed that they have received information on television concerning his death.

"The IPCC made it clear that we would not speculate or release partial information about the investigation, and that others should not do so."

A Met spokeswoman said it would be inappropriate for the force to comment on the ITV leak, or other issues surrounding the death of Mr de Menezes, while the IPCC investigation is ongoing.

Metropolitan police statements: How the story changed

Friday 22 July
Man shot at Stockwell tube station: "We can confirm that at just after 10am this morning, Friday 22 July, armed officers from the Metropolitan Police entered Stockwell tube station in south London. A man was challenged by officers and was subsequently shot. London Ambulance Service and the Helicopter Emergency Service attended the scene. The man was pronounced dead at the scene. Stockwell tube station is closed and cordons of 200 metres are in place. As is routine, officers from the Met's directorate of professional standards have been informed."

Friday 22 July
Metropolitan police commissioner Sir Ian Blair: "I can say as part of operations linked to yesterday's incidents, Met police officers have shot a man inside Stockwell underground station at approximately 10am this morning. London Ambulance Service and the air ambulance both attended and the man was pronounced dead at the scene. I understand Stockwell tube station remains closed. The information I have available if that this shooting is directly linked to the ongoing and expanding anti-terrorist operation. Any death is deeply regrettable. I understand the man was challenged and refused to obey. I can't go any further than that at this stage."

Monday 25 July
Police make a further arrest: "Commissioner Sir Ian Blair has expressed 'deep regret' at the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes, calling his death 'a tragedy'."

Tuesday 26 July
IPCC leads shooting investigation: "The investigation into the fatal police shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes on Friday 22 July has been handed over to the Independent Police Complaints Commission. This investigation was initially begun by the directorate of professional standards. Detectives have so far obtained over 100 witness statements, secured over 200 documents that may be pertinent to the investigation and ensured appropriate forensic work was conducted. A further statement has been published on the Independent Police Complaints Commission website at www.ipcc.gov.uk."

Pressure grows over tube killing
17 August 2005

Scotland Yard chief Sir Ian Blair should resign if he is found to have deliberately misled the family of an innocent Brazilian electrician shot dead by anti-terror police, their supporters said.

The Commissioner was "ultimately responsible" for the officers who gunned down Jean Charles de Menezes after mistaking him for a suicide bomber and for the "catalogue of disasters" that led to his death, they said.

As anger grew among Mr de Menezes's relatives after Tuesday night's dramatic new disclosures, his cousin said the officers involved should be "jailed for life" for what amounted to "murder". With reports claiming that the police marksmen could potentially face criminal charges, one of the family's lawyers said it was beginning to look like there were grounds for a criminal prosecution.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission promised a "thorough and impartial" investigation into the shooting and said it was planning to update the family's lawyers on its latest findings on Thursday.

Despite mounting pressure on the Metropolitan Police, there was still no official comment on the documents obtained by ITV News on Tuesday which re-ignited the controversy over the affair.

They appeared to suggest that Mr de Menezes had done little to arouse suspicion before he was shot dead at Stockwell Tube station, other than to emerge from a flat that had been under surveillance. (NB this is wrong - he emerged from a block of NINE flats).

Far from vaulting a ticket barrier and running down an escalator to escape firearms officers, he had actually walked into the station at a normal pace and had even paused to pick up a free newspaper, the documents said.

Reports that he had been wearing a bulky coat that added to suspicions were also incorrect, they revealed. He was clad only in a light denim jacket.

One police officer was also quoted as saying he was able to grab Mr de Menezes and pin his arms to his side before the shooting started. Another said he had been unable to record video footage of the Brazilian because he had been "relieving himself".

Asad Rehman, from the Justice4Jean campaign, said the latest disclosures vindicated everything Mr de Menezes's family had said and again repeated their call for a public inquiry. He said that if Sir Ian was found to have misled Mr de Menezes's family, his position would be "no longer tenable". He said Sir Ian must take responsibility for his force's controversial shoot-to-kill policy.

Mr de Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder at point blank range the day after the failed July 21 bomb attacks on the London transport network after being mistaken for one of the suspects.

Pressure grows over tube killing

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

I didn't read your whole post due to it's length, but from what I've seen, the police lied about a hell of a lot.

I generally give the police the benefit of the doubt in tricky situations, but they [censored] up big style here. Surely heads will roll.

How about sacking that twat Ian Blair who praised the officers involved despite knowing it was all lies?

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

I was pretty firmly behind the cops when the story first broke. Clearly it sucked for all involved, but accidents happen, right?

The newest allegations, if true (and I have no reason to doubt them), are pretty damning. Those officers need to be charged with some sort of serious crime.

The shoot-to-kill policy should probably be kept (but the exact ROE should be reviewed)

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

IUnless you think the police in this case are homicidal thugs, it doesn't change the fact that the shooting was an unfortunate yet understandable mistake.

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

Sadly, things like this happen pretty frequently.

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

If the new information is correct, it's still unfortunate, but less understandable.

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

[ QUOTE ]
IUnless you think the police in this case are homicidal thugs, it doesn't change the fact that the shooting was an unfortunate yet understandable mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really have a hard time figuring out how this can be remotely understandible. Those officers should be put in jail.

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sadly, things like this happen pretty frequently.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes they do, recently a police officer near me shot an unarmed college student who was trying to get into his own home. The kid had a BAC 3x the DUI limit. The kid probably couldn't of stood up straight let alone be a danger to the officer.

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

it happens everywhere. My old town, police offices shot unarmed men atleats three times that I can remember, and I lived in a nice area.

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sadly, things like this happen pretty frequently.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but not in England. The police here aren't armed; only special firearms groups are, so there simply isn't the opportunity for many of the accidental/rash shootings that we see in America. However, there has always been real concern here (since a case years ago where the police shot someone holding a table leg) that "once they get the guns out, they're bound to shoot somebody" and this incident, while initially seeming like a difficult decision to take for which the police should've gotten the benefit of the doubt, is raising all those issues again as the doubt is being removed and it's starting to look like the police severely overreacted in an admittedly difficult situation.

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

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I really have a hard time figuring out how this can be remotely understandible. Those officers should be put in jail.

[/ QUOTE ]
It was understandable in a sense, because of the fear of more suicide bombings and the enormous pressure on the police to stop further attacks. That doesn't justify what happened, off course.

As to your last remark. Personally I think the people that came up with this reckless 'shoot to kill' policy should shoulder the blame, not necessarily the policeman that did the shooting.

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

[ QUOTE ]
How about sacking that twat Ian Blair who praised the officers involved despite knowing it was all lies?

[/ QUOTE ]

This guy wouldn't do this, he's a politican not a police man, my guess is he praised them before reading the report. He should go, he is nothing more than a Tony Blair place-man.

Most people won't care about this guy having been shot for no other reason than he lived near terrorists. He wasn't challenged, he didn't jump the barrier, he didn't run onto train (except as we all do when late). He had been sitting in his seat for a while when police got there, pulled him off his chair, pinned him down and fired into his head seven times, lastly the jacket he wore could not conceal a device. I've heard a lot of people say, he was a foreigner an illegal (expired visa), well since when did that carry the death penalty in the UK?

We need to question our faith in authority, we need to question how much power and responsibility we want to give them, they are not infalable;

* They will make mistakes and then lie

* They will not always act in our best interests

* They will not always know what is in our best interests

* They get scared, which leads to poor judgements

* They won't always be good or fair people

* They are often self-interested or corrupt

Trust them, sure. Ask yourself everyday if they still deserve it though.

Mack

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

Just remember, if some jack-booted thug policemen mistake you for a terrorist and try to kill you, aim for the head if you shoot back.

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

[ QUOTE ]
IUnless you think the police in this case are homicidal thugs, it doesn't change the fact that the shooting was an unfortunate yet understandable mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree that it's an understandable mistake. They killed a guy simply because he came out of the same block of nine flats as a suspect, even though he was identified as being white (when the suspect was known to be black), was not confirmed by surveillance officers as being the suspect, and made no attempt to resist or run away as they alleged. You can't simply go around executing people on such ridiculously flimsy grounds. I don't think the police in general are homicidal thugs but this looks like a case of a stupid policy mixed up with an extraordinary level of incompetence and poor decision making.

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

Wow. I supported the London cops under the prior version of the story, but if this stuff is true... pretty shocking.

I blame it on Britain's lack of a well-developed gun culture [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

I hear the police have now changed their story and claim to have been helping install democracy into the guy.

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

I can't justify their actions at all, but I can see how this happened. I hope what I am about to say isn't interpreted as an excuse, but more so as a possible explanation.

Your country is at a high stress time, and its even more stressful for the cops. They are on high alert to catch suspects and prevent future attacks. I think the stress they are under most certainly led to this event happening. Whats really sad is stuff like this happens in the U.S. in situations which the stress level is much much lower. I guess some of us Americans have become jaded to stuff like this.

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

It now appears that this shooting may have been an unfortunate error.

Of course, given the events in London prior to this shooting, such an error is quite understandable.

The man who was shot is another victim of islamic terrorism, and the civilized world must step up efforts to identify and annihilate the terrorists responsible for this and many other senseless murders.

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

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As to your last remark. Personally I think the people that came up with this reckless 'shoot to kill' policy should shoulder the blame, not necessarily the policeman that did the shooting.

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scapegoats are for the weak.

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

Yes, but he had the capablity to run.

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

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It now appears that this shooting may have been an unfortunate error

[/ QUOTE ]

If this report is legitamate what the officersdid is not an unfortunate error, it is a criminal act.

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Of course, given the events in London prior to this shooting, such an error is quite understandable

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What like a drunk driver killing someone in an accident is understandable because off course if he's drunk his driving ability will be impaired.

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The man who was shot is another victim of islamic terrorism

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Again if this report is correct he is a victim of murder performed by officers of the law.

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and the civilized world must step up efforts to identify and annihilate the terrorists responsible for this and many other senseless murders.

[/ QUOTE ]

If its Islamic religious fundamentalist terrorists your talking about we could always just ask the people funding them to stop.

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IUnless you think the police in this case are homicidal thugs, it doesn't change the fact that the shooting was an unfortunate yet understandable mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree that it's an understandable mistake. They killed a guy simply because he came out of the same block of nine flats as a suspect, even though he was identified as being white (when the suspect was known to be black), was not confirmed by surveillance officers as being the suspect, and made no attempt to resist or run away as they alleged. You can't simply go around executing people on such ridiculously flimsy grounds. I don't think the police in general are homicidal thugs but this looks like a case of a stupid policy mixed up with an extraordinary level of incompetence and poor decision making.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this kind of disaster is considered just an 'understandable mistake' I would be more frightened of the special armed police than the terrorists.

Frank

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

[ QUOTE ]
It now appears that this shooting may have been an unfortunate error.

[/ QUOTE ]

WRONG. It *originally* appeared that this was an unfortunate error. Now it appears to be a case of gross overreaction, incompetence, and panic.

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

>>If this report is legitamate what the officersdid is not an unfortunate error, it is a criminal act.<<

Leeds, your response is foolish, incoherent, and hysterical. You need to wake up and smell the coffee - we are at war, and islamic terrorists are turning our cities into war zones.

If you choose to stick your head in the sand and let others do the hard work to defend you and your family, that's your choice. But don't blame the people who are putting their lives on the line to save your sorry ass for deaths that are the direct result of islamic terrorism.

I understand that you are confused. Perhaps it would be better if you just didn't comment on matters like this that are beyond your limited powers of reason and comprehension.

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

I don't think you understand zipo. The police made a mess of surveillance, tracked a random guy from the block of flats they were watching despite him being a different colour to the suspect, then popped him in the head 7 times execution style.

The cops then made up a bunch of lies about the whole thing.

I'm afraid we just don't like the police killing people for no reason in this country.

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

>>The cops then made up a bunch of lies about the whole thing.

I'm afraid we just don't like the police killing people for no reason in this country. <<

I take your point, bez. Still, I'm not sure all the facts are in yet, but lets assume for argument's sake that the police overreacted.

The 'root cause' of this incident is clearly the recent mass murder of innocent commuters by muslim terrorists in London.

All in all, I believe the people of England have comported themselves admirably in the face of these mass murders. For example, a couple of years ago in India muslim terrorists burned dozens of innocent hindus - mostly women and children - burned them to death on a train simply because they were of a different faith (or "infidels", as they like to say). In response, hindus rioted and swept through a muslim neighborhood in retaliation, killing hundreds of muslims - innocent and guilty alike.

Clearly, it is tragic that innocents suffered in this act of retaliation, but such retaliation is understandable.

My main point is that we must not lose sight of the root cause of this incident. We must also resign ourselves to the fact that if we in the West continue to be provoked by terror, at some point incidents of massive retaliation become inevitable - which is tragic, because more innocents will be caught up in this carnage.

Re: Man Killed in London Did Not Run From Police
 

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scapegoats are for the weak.

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???

This is about taking responsibility. This policy was flawed and ill thought trough to begin with.

Shoot To Kill
 

Sometimes, the mind just boggles with posts from this page (supposedly the Politics page of a forum frequented by Advantage Players, i.e. smart people).

I mean, really! Why are the extreme pro-war/anti-terror folks so ready to offer excuses for the London shooting and downplay its significance?

Don't they realize that, first and foremost, any fatal, criminal errors such as the London shooting will obstruct the anti-terror effort?

Do the pooh-poohing posters actually believe that the effort against terror is HELPED by
(a) not recognizing the shooting as criminal/murderous negligence which should be porosecuted as a crime,
(b) not taking measures that will prevent such incidents in the future (or, at least, make them less probable), and
(c) not having the public opinion trusting the authorities and firmly behind the anti-terror effort ?

The mind, as I said, boggles.

Re: Shoot To Kill
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do the pooh-poohing posters actually believe that the effort against terror is HELPED by
(a) not recognizing the shooting as criminal/murderous negligence which should be porosecuted as a crime,
(b) not taking measures that will prevent such incidents in the future (or, at least, make them less probable), and
(c) not having the public opinion trusting the authorities and firmly behind the anti-terror effort ?

The mind, as I said, boggles.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I am afraid they do, they seem to imply that the shooting was 'understandable', and therefore that any kind of questioning of the police actions is tantamount to high treason. Auf with his head gov.

Mack