Why is liberal a bad word...
 

while conservative is not?

Aren't they pretty much two sides of the same coin? Aren't they essentially neutral words?

Several posters and many notable Republicans today use the word "liberal" as if it is an insult. I would think it was especially stupid if the Democrats did not react as though it was an insult. So, I am just wondering...

By the way, even though I feel the flames coming, I am not a liberal. I'm actually a moderate who leans toward conservatism. But...I also have a degree in English, so I'm naturally curious about particular word usage.

There you go...flame on.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

I cannot say why the word "liberal" has become a pejorative, but the fact that most liberals now use the word "prgressive" is an indication that they prefer another word, too.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

Because liberals are seen as pussies, thanks to Bush and his media machine. You don't want pussies running our country, do you?

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Because liberals are seen as pussies, thanks to Bush and his media machine. You don't want pussies running our country, do you?

[/ QUOTE ]

As a matter of fact, I do [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

Conservatives have painted liberalism, as practiced by the Democrats when they were in the saddle, as responsible for many of today's woes. So if you're a liberal, you're on the wrong side. Since conservatives have been in the saddle, liberals think it better to not call themselves liberals, preferring "progressive" or other euphemisms.

IIRC, Democrats did the same thing with the word "conservative" in the 1960s. The shoe's just on the other foot now.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

[ QUOTE ]
while conservative is not

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not? Really?

Methinks this depends on where you live and who you are with.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

It still can be. Note that Bush ran as a "compassionate conservative." So he (or Rove) must have felt the naked word needed some modification.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Because liberals are seen as pussies, thanks to Bush and his media machine.

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys are wrong if you think this is all about bad PR. Liberalism is disrespected because of their excesses in the past. Income tax rates of 70%, free flowing yet unproductive social programs, radical military reductions making us vunerable.

Conservatives have never had the power to make one sided bad decisions like these. The margins in Congress even today is too narrow to get anything by without liberal GOP support. Add to that the fact that the courts routinely kill anything that looks even slightly conservative, and you have the simple fact that there have been no conservative excesses, and one can safely vote for a conservative without having to fear future excesses.

The bad effects of past liberal excesses are still with us, so people have not forgotten, and don't think people are fooled by someone who calls himself a "progressive", they know that that means liberal.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Conservatives have never had the power to make one sided bad decisions like these.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of curiosity, if the margins are so close, then how come the pendulum doesn't swing both ways? Isn't it equally true that the GOP needs conservative Democrats to help get its programs passed(for instance, the Patriot Act)?

I'm a little confused by your post. You speak to the narrow margin of Congress, but then state that liberals have had essentially carte blanche to execute their excessive programs. What about McCarthy's era? What about persisting in Vietnam? What about persisting in the war on terror?

I'm really not trying to be difficult, but I would like some clarification on this point.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

[ QUOTE ]
You guys are wrong if you think this is all about bad PR. Liberalism is disrespected because of their excesses in the past. Income tax rates of 70%, free flowing yet unproductive social programs, radical military reductions making us vunerable.

Conservatives have never had the power to make one sided bad decisions like these. The margins in Congress even today is too narrow to get anything by without liberal GOP support. Add to that the fact that the courts routinely kill anything that looks even slightly conservative, and you have the simple fact that there have been no conservative excesses, and one can safely vote for a conservative without having to fear future excesses.

The bad effects of past liberal excesses are still with us, so people have not forgotten, and don't think people are fooled by someone who calls himself a "progressive", they know that that means liberal.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may want to consult this book before you use the word liberal again.

Actually, I think most conservatives who frequently use the world liberal to describe something similar to what BGC did really do know what liberal means - which makes me wonder why they continue using it despite the fact it's a rather poor way to charactize people who want to raise taxes, increase regulations, institute radical social programs centered around collectivism, etc.

Truth be told, I really don't wonder at all.

[ QUOTE ]
You guys are wrong if you think this is all about bad PR.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I think they've hit it right on the mark.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

To some extent there is a movement to make "neo-con" the "liberal" for the right... But I think mostly its situational. A liberal would be proud to be called such a term just as some conservatives likely wouldnt mind neo-con. But from opposing sides its meant as more of an insult.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

I don't see why we need another perjorative when we already have the delightful, but underused, "Dumb-ocrat."

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

[ QUOTE ]
To some extent there is a movement to make "neo-con" the "liberal" for the right

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good point, IMO. The left frequently uses the neo-con label with little care for the implications of such a use.

I hardly ever hear the left using it to mean:

neo con = "someone who is fervently anticommunist, supports social welfare spending and civil equality for blacks and other minorities; more inclined than other conservatives toward an interventionist foreign policy and unilateralism; usually associated themselves with radical leftist movements before becoming a neo-con, etc."

I often hear the left using to mean:

neo con = "right-wing bad guy"

I think it's perceived effectiveness lies in the 'neo' part of it, as most Americans only hear 'neo' with a negative connotation - 'neo-Nazi', for instance.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why we need another perjorative when we already have the delightful, but underused, "Dumb-ocrat."

[/ QUOTE ]

Internet message boards are teeming with 'cleverly' worded political pejoratives - DIMocrats, REPUGNANTcans, democRATS, compASSionate conservative - to name a few. 2+2 is rather nice in that (at least I'd like to think) the 2+2 community doesn't seem to find that kind of stuff to be humorous.

I once had a conservative friend who really liked to listen to Rush Limbaugh - he claimed he listened because he thought Rush was funny. When I asked why he thought Rush was humorous, his example was that he thought it was funny "when he calls people femi-Nazis." I'm sure there were other things he thought were funny, but this is what he mentioned.

Anyway, I never understood why he found it funny. We were both college students in Ann Arbor, MI at the time - certainly a town with many people who fit the "femi-Nazi" stereotype; so I understood what Rush was getting it, but I just didn't get why it was funny - even though I think "femi-Nazis" are easily lampoonable figures, so to speak.

I think "Dumb-o-crats" and "REPUGNicans" are similar types of cheesy attempts at political humor that I'll probably never find funny.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

I've often thought that it was the Left, not the Right, that made 'liberal' a pejorative. Liberals were too moderate for the Left; witness Phil Och's song (and Zeno favorite), "Love Me, I'm a Liberal."

Currently, the Right seem in control of defining the terms; they call anything they don't like 'liberal,' and we have a big-government, interventionist national-ID-card-favoring "conservative" in the White House.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why we need another perjorative when we already have the delightful, but underused, "Dumb-ocrat."

[/ QUOTE ]

is "dumb-o-crat" the only thing you contribute to this forum?

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

[ QUOTE ]


CHICKEN SONG


It's the time of year, now that spring is in the air
When those two wet gits, with their girly curly hair
Make another song, for marronic holidays
that nausiate-ate-ates in a million different ways
From the shores of Spain, to the coast of southern France
No matter where you hide, you just can't escape this dance




Hold a chicken in the air, stick a deck-chair up your nose
Buy a Jumbo-Jet, and then bury all your clothes
Paint your left knee green, then extract your wisdom teeth
Form a string quartet, and pretend your name is Keith.





Skin yourself alive, learn to speak araphahoe
Climb inside a dog, and behead an Eskimo
Eat a Renault 4, wear salami in your ears
Cassarole your gran, dis-embowel yourself with spears





The disco is migrating, the sound is loud and grating
It's truly nausiating - let's do the dance again..





Hold a chicken in the air, stick a deck-chair up your nose
Buy a Jumbo-Jet, and then bury all your clothes
Yes you'll hear this song, in the holiday discos
And there's no escape, in the clubs or in the bars
You would hear this song, if you holidayed in Mars






Skin yourself alive, learn to speak araphahoe
Climb inside a dog, and behead an Eskimo
Now you've heard it once, your brain will spring a leak
And though you hate this song you'll be humming it for weeks






Hold a chicken in the air, stick a deck-chair up your nose
Buy a Jumbo-Jet, and then bury all your clothes
la la la la la la la....


[/ QUOTE ]

This was funny, I guess you had to be there.

Mack

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Because liberals are seen as pussies, thanks to Bush and his media machine. You don't want pussies running our country, do you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Liberals have done that to themselves. Let's face it, a bunc of effeminate NYC elitists sipping martini's and watching Broadway pretty much sells itself.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

[ QUOTE ]
effeminate

[/ QUOTE ]

Gimmick account or not, clearly a severely under-studied phenomenon - gender, male anxiety/masculinity and political behavior.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've often thought that it was the Left, not the Right, that made 'liberal' a pejorative. Liberals were too moderate for the Left; witness Phil Och's song (and Zeno favorite), "Love Me, I'm a Liberal."

Currently, the Right seem in control of defining the terms; they call anything they don't like 'liberal,' and we have a big-government, interventionist national-ID-card-favoring "conservative" in the White House.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.

Anyone interested in the misuse and abuse of words in our political and cultural lexicon should check out "Keywords" by Raymond Williams. He does a great job of defining a lot of buzzwords and commonly misused words in much clearer ways. Book is 20 years old but still very relevant.

NT

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

[ QUOTE ]
witness Phil Och's song (and Zeno favorite), "Love Me, I'm a Liberal."



[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't even know this was a favorite of mine. But I guess so:

Love Me, I'm a Liberal
By Phil Ochs


I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I'd lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I go to civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every colored boy becomes a star
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
I'm glad the commies were thrown out
Of the A.F.L. C.I.O. board
I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
As long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

The people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
I can't understand how their minds work
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crane?
But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I read New Republic and Nation
I've learned to take every view
You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew
But when it comes to times like korea
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I vote for the democtratic party
They want the U.N. to be strong
I go to all the Pete Seeger concerts
He sure gets me singing those songs
I'll send all the money you ask for
But don't ask me to come on along
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to the socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
But I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal




[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

it isnt what you are labeled, its what you do that counts. if you leave the next administration with massive debt and inflation, they will have to raise taxes somehow. if you cut programs as a conservative too much then the next liberal administration must come in and currect it by overspending. thats how it works. each side has to go overboard to satisfy their constituents. the system is broken and thats the problem not the party in power.
if conservative is stopping abortion, cutting social security, forcing our views on the world, spending ourselves broke on the military, then i want to be a liberal.
if liberalism is spending ourselves broke on welfare for able workers and immigrants, raisng taxes, spending on foreign countries to buy allegience, trying to improve the school systems with more money, then i want to be a conservative.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

OK, I'll fess up. It's the Jello Biafra version, not the Phil Ochs original, that Zeno liked. (At least I think it was Zeno, I may have my misanthropists confused.)

Prairie Home Invasion
Love Me I'm a Liberal

I cried when they shot John Lennon
Tears ran down my spine
And I cried when I saw "JFK"
As if I'd lost a father of mine
But Malcom-X and Ice-T had it coming
They got what they asked for this time

Chorus:
So love me, love me, love me,
I'm a liberal

I go to pro-choice rallies
Recycle my cans and jars
I'll honk if you love the Dead
Hope those funny Grunge bands become stars
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit to far

Chorus:
So love me, love me, love me,
I'm a liberal

I cheered when Clinton was chosen
My faith in the system reborn
I'll do anything to save our schools
If my taxes aint too much more
And I love Blacks and Gays and Latinos
As long as they don't move next door

Chorus:
So love me, love me, love me,
I'm a liberal

Rush Limbaugh and the L.A.P.D.
Should all hang thier heads in shame
I can't understand where they're at
Arsenio should set them straight
But if neighborhood watch doesn't know you
I hope the cops take your name

Chorus:
So love me, love me, love me,
I'm a liberal

Yeah, I read the New Republican
Rolling Stone and Mother Jones too
If I vote it's a democrat
With a sensible economy view
But when it comes to terrorist Arabs
There is no one more red, white, and blue

Chorus:
So love me, love me, love me,
I'm a liberal

Once I was young and had an attitude
Stickers covered the car I drove in
Even went on some direct actions
When there weren't rent-a-cops to be seen
Ah, but now I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in

Chorus:
So love me, love me, love me,
I'm a liberal


[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

[ QUOTE ]
while conservative is not?

Aren't they pretty much two sides of the same coin? Aren't they essentially neutral words?

Several posters and many notable Republicans today use the word "liberal" as if it is an insult. I would think it was especially stupid if the Democrats did not react as though it was an insult. So, I am just wondering...

By the way, even though I feel the flames coming, I am not a liberal. I'm actually a moderate who leans toward conservatism. But...I also have a degree in English, so I'm naturally curious about particular word usage.

There you go...flame on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Liberal is a very bad word because its working definition differs in virtually every jurisdiction (everything from centre-left in the U.S. to civil libertarians with moderate economic views in the U.K. to neo-Nazi in Russia to centrist in most (but not all) of Canada), making it virtually useless when analysing and comparing ideologies and regimes.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

Ray Zee/ El Diablo 2008

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

Ray,

Let me be the first to say your book brought my Stud game to a whole new level.

However,

[ QUOTE ]
if liberalism is spending ourselves broke on welfare for able workers and immigrants, raisng taxes,

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't figure this (this = what's in bold) for the life of me.

At least tax and spending is consistent; I'll never be able to square tax cutting and spending.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ray,

Let me be the first to say your book brought my Stud game to a whole new level.

However,

[ QUOTE ]
if liberalism is spending ourselves broke on welfare for able workers and immigrants, raisng taxes,

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't figure this (this = what's in bold) for the life of me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither can I. When you spend $100 billion and counting on a war, them extra dollars can come in quite handy.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

[ QUOTE ]

if conservative is stopping abortion, cutting social security, forcing our views on the world, spending ourselves broke on the military, then i want to be a liberal.
if liberalism is spending ourselves broke on welfare for able workers and immigrants, raisng taxes, spending on foreign countries to buy allegience, trying to improve the school systems with more money, then i want to be a conservative.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like this post.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Neither can I. When you spend $100 billion and counting on a war, them extra dollars can come in quite handy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I only meant - how can you spend yourself 'broke' by raising taxes? That sounds rather impossible to me.

But certainly, I can't square President Bush's tax-cutting AND spending.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Neither can I. When you spend $100 billion and counting on a war, them extra dollars can come in quite handy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I only meant - how can you spend yourself 'broke' by raising taxes? That sounds rather impossible to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can sure as hell bankrupt your children by forcing them to pay 25% more in taxes to FUND ALL THE EXTRA F***ING DEBT that is being racked up.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

if conservative is stopping abortion, cutting social security, forcing our views on the world, spending ourselves broke on the military, then i want to be a liberal.
if liberalism is spending ourselves broke on welfare for able workers and immigrants, raisng taxes, spending on foreign countries to buy allegience, trying to improve the school systems with more money, then i want to be a conservative.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like this post.

[/ QUOTE ]

So do I. What scares me is that with all our 'smart' and experienced leaders, we can never seem to find much middle ground on some of these issues.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

dvaut1,

i meant each as a different thing hense the comma.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word....
 

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]..

because..

when a person refuses to take a job because "it doesn't pay enuf; or ; that's below my dignaty" ; then a liberal sez to get a 52 week continuance on unemployment benefits; up the food stamp and stipend for unemployment to make min wage jobs even more unappealling; and blame the conservatives for not building a new voc rehab building because the disadvantaged victim dropped out of high school in 8th grade to do dope and father 6 illegitamate children..;

well then obviously the liberal is a loving , caring person, and the conservative who is outraged by these disincentive to work and be responsible programs, is obviously a hardened selfish individual...

that's why i hate liberals..verstahen??

gl

[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re:Crazy
 

AHHHH...a degree in the English language(sp) I envy you

You know if you could speak japenese(sp) or Arabic you could make tons of money abroad. Not joking, even a little understanding is in high demand.

almost forgot Im trying to get a degree in English my self. very hard for a forgiener.

Re:Crazy
 

Jerome...do you have some beef with me that I don't know about?

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

Well cutting taxes and increasing spending do have some basis in economic thought. Trying to hyperstimulate your way out of a funky recession is not necessarily a terrible idea. Things were looking awful grim after the tech bubble popped.

However, advocating permanent tax cuts no matter the situation is ridiculous. It's no different than any other business/living. You save when things are going well (raise taxes and/or cut benefits during a hot economy) and dip into savings/profits if things go poorly (tax cuts and possibly more spending.)

The problem is getting a politician to say he will raise taxes if the economy is running too good so we don't get too out of whack. Or even getting a politician to say he will increase tax revenue during a boom by maintaining tax rates rather than cutting them since it's "your money not Washington's."

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

I hope this doesn't come off as too blunt but....since when does the right answer mean taking the "extreme" views and meeting in the middle?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

if conservative is stopping abortion, cutting social security, forcing our views on the world, spending ourselves broke on the military, then i want to be a liberal.
if liberalism is spending ourselves broke on welfare for able workers and immigrants, raisng taxes, spending on foreign countries to buy allegience, trying to improve the school systems with more money, then i want to be a conservative.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like this post.

[/ QUOTE ]

So do I. What scares me is that with all our 'smart' and experienced leaders, we can never seem to find much middle ground on some of these issues.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

[ QUOTE ]
, and you have the simple fact that there have been no conservative excesses, and one can safely vote for a conservative without having to fear future excesses.



[/ QUOTE ]

If I could direct your attention to the country of Iraq.

Re: Why is liberal a bad word....
 

It's hard to count all the ridiculous stereotypes there.

In modern society intelligence counts for a lot. If you're really stupid (meaning the bottom 5% or so) you have a low chance of ever making decent money. Low IQ is shown to be correlated to lower income (and vice versa). So in a country as rich as ours they should live in squalor?

And intelligence is based on both genetics and environment. So yes those disadvantaged youths you mocked were born way behind assuming their genetics are on par with everyone else (though if they were born poor they are likely behind genetically as well since we already know about the IQ correlation there).

It's easy to look down on other people when your skill sets are valued by the society you were born in - but others aren't so fortunate. So get off your high horse and if some of your poker winnings are taxed to go to help some guy born with shitty genes and environment I would say count your blessings you don't need the charity.

[ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]..

because..

when a person refuses to take a job because "it doesn't pay enuf; or ; that's below my dignaty" ; then a liberal sez to get a 52 week continuance on unemployment benefits; up the food stamp and stipend for unemployment to make min wage jobs even more unappealling; and blame the conservatives for not building a new voc rehab building because the disadvantaged victim dropped out of high school in 8th grade to do dope and father 6 illegitamate children..;

well then obviously the liberal is a loving , caring person, and the conservative who is outraged by these disincentive to work and be responsible programs, is obviously a hardened selfish individual...

that's why i hate liberals..verstahen??

gl

[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Why is liberal a bad word...
 

I am proud to be a liberal, and I take it as a compliment when I am addressed as such.

The one thing about the word that annoys me is the high number of Democrats that claim to be liberal, but are really conservative.