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Ten7offsuit 08-13-2005 06:51 PM

My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
I started playing poker two years ago, with some buddies in college. Standard NL $5 buy in games, none of us knew what we were doing, but we had a lot of fun. Around the summer of last year I really got serious about this game and started reading some books and found my way to 2+2. I was amazed to find a place filled with so many serious poker players who made tons of money discussing all kinds of super advanced strategy. I didn't learn much from here at first, mainly because I just didn't know enough about poker to really learn anything useful here. Around this time was when I first started going to casinos, and the first few times I played very tight and passive but won $40 at a 2/4 game. I went back a few times, always booking a small win, until one day I just ran extremely well. I was getting great cards, hitting every flop, making all my draws, getting paid off on all my monsters, etc. and before I knew it I had turned my $60 buy in at the 2/4 table to an incredible $400 in about 4 hours of play. I was excited, thought I was the greatest player ever, and promptly went home and bought in for $50 at Party the next day. I played all day, starting at 2/4, and three days later I had turned that $50 into $1500 and I was four tabling 3/6 and 5/10. I thought I was at the level of all these guys I kept reading about on this forum making thousands playing poker and I felt like I was on top of the world. I was bragging to people how much money I was winning, making plans to buy plasma tvs and cars and other toys, when it all came spiraling down.

I withdrew $500 (didn't have Neteller so had it sent to me as a check) and continued playing, but I hit my first bad run hard. I stopped getting cards, missed every flop and draw, watched as others drew out on my good hands, and soon my bankroll went from $1000 to $500. I was angry and tilting, yelling at the computer about what terrible fish I was up against, how it made no sense for me to get this unlucky, etc. With my remaining $500, I entered a $215 SNG and was out in the first level. I entered another $215, busted in that as well, and blew my remaining $100 at the 2/4 tables playing like an angry maniac.

I was convinced that I was the victim of bad luck (which was partially true) and bought in for another $50, lost it, bought in for $50 more, lost it, repeated this proccess a bunch of times, overdrawing from my checking account like 10 times ($22 fee for each time) before I decided to take a break. I read SSHE, WLLH, studied this forum, and decided to take another shot at Party. I deposited the $500 check I had received from Party for my cashout into my bank, deposited $500 into Party, and I sat down at a 10/20 full table. I sat there, feeling scared, playing super weak tight because I didn't want to lose my money. I managed to hit a few hands and doubled up to $1000 before calling it a night. The next day I tried the 15/30 tables, ran bad, and lost it all. This started an ugly cycle where I would deposit $500 through IGM Pay even though I didn't have any money in my account, play the 10/20 or 15/30 tables, and when the check bounced have the Party guys take it out of my Party account. This happened a few times, I paid a ton in overdraft fees, and by winter break I was broke again.

I spent about a week at home without poker, but I got restless and decided to try poker again. Put $500 into Party, lost it all. Opened an account with Pokernow, deposited $500, and managed to run that up to $6000. When my bankroll dipped back down to $5000, I managed to control myself and stopped playing 15/30. I had Party take out $1000 to cover my bounced checks, left $1000 in my PN account, and withdrew the remaining $3000 into Neteller. I put $500 into Pokerstars because I'd heard that they had good tournaments and I wanted to give them a shot. I entered the big sunday tournament, didn't cash, played a few 10s and 20s and cashed in one, and one day I had the day of my life as I won the 11 rebuy in a huge field for a prize of $11k. I was excited, I thought I was the greatest tourney player in the world, and dreamed of all the things I would buy with this money. And then I promptly lost it all at the high stakes games (100/200, 10/20 NL?) on PS. Just kidding.

I withdrew $10k into Neteller, and withdrew $8k to my bank account. I hated school, hated my parents and living at home, I was a loser with no friends anyways, so I decided to become a pro. I knew a bit more about poker and bankroll management by now, but I still sucked. I went out leased a nice apartment for $1k a month, financed a car (2004 Infiniti G35), bought a plasma TV, nice furniture, 2 Dell 2001FPs, and my new pro poker career was underway. I had a $5k bankroll on Party and I started multitabling 3/6, and did fairly well my first month, booking a profit of about $5k. After that first month, however, things went downhill fast. I went on a 250BB downswing over 15k hands, then broke even for the next 40k hands. Things started to look better after my 40k break even streak, but after a decent 2k winning streak, I went downhill again until I had no money in my bank account, and $500 left in my bankroll. I couldn't pay rent, insurance, car payments, I had a miserable, depressing life, no food, no friends, no joy, and I tried to kill myself but was unsuccessful. I returned my car, sold my crap, and went home and got a job at a mortgage company where I'm actually doing quite well as of now.

I see plenty of great success stories here, which is great, but I thought I'd give some of you posters a look at a bit of reality. For every one of these guys doing great, there are many more who are struggling at this game, blaming their losses on variance, when in reality, they simply suck and cannot beat the game at a decent rate to be able to generate a steady income. There are tons of guys who probably come here (or are already here) who think to themselves "Wow, I'm so good, I'm beating the 2/4 games at 4BB/100, I'm going to make tons of money" when in reality, you are just running good and will probably end up with at 0.2BB/100 if you are lucky. I know I sound like a angry bitter loser, which I am, but it is the truth. I have more to say but I'm tired of typing and need to go bang the supermodel I'm dating. Peace out ya'll.

BottlesOf 08-13-2005 06:58 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
Thank you for sharing what must've been a tough post to write.

08-13-2005 07:03 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
[ QUOTE ]
I see plenty of great success stories here, which is great, but I thought I'd give some of you posters a look at a bit of reality. For every one of these guys doing great, there are many more who are struggling at this game, blaming their losses on variance, when in reality, they simply suck and cannot beat the game at a decent rate to be able to generate a steady income. There are tons of guys who probably come here (or are already here) who think to themselves "Wow, I'm so good, I'm beating the 2/4 games at 4BB/100, I'm going to make tons of money" when in reality, you are just running good and will probably end up with at 0.2BB/100 if you are lucky. I know I sound like a angry bitter loser, which I am, but it is the truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your post does a better job of describing a spiral into gambling addiction than what it's like to be a losing poker player. Not every losing player pumps in thousands of dollars playing well above their bankroll.

Onaflag 08-13-2005 07:17 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Your post does a better job of describing a spiral into gambling addiction than what it's like to be a losing poker player. Not every losing player pumps in thousands of dollars playing well above their bankroll.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, great story, but do you really suck at poker THAT badly? Or is it simply horrible BR management. The only saneness in your quest was the 3/6 play with the proper BR.

I wish you well in your new day job. Slow down your poker quest, for sure, but I wouldn't quit altogether. Start over with the books and low limits and try to make it an entertaining side job instead of the focus of life.

Onaflag...........

smartalecc5 08-13-2005 07:40 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
That must have been one damn crazy adventure.

nmt09 08-13-2005 07:51 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
Your problems seem to have been you playing well beyond your skill and bankroll level, not to mention a seriously addictive personality.

Most players wouldn't think about throwing the amount of money you did into game after game. I'm playing $1.20 Sit and Go tables because that is what my bankroll dictates ( and my skill level couldn't find a lower buy-in [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] ).

I'm sure you could find many stories like this where people don't play at the right level, get too full of themselves, and over extend themselves financially.

I'm glad you're doing better now but if I had your addictive personality I'd quit poker for life. It might seem like you can handle it but that feeling of just $500 more could easily come back.

I wish you all the best of luck in your new job...

Equal 08-13-2005 07:54 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
I am impressed that you were able to share that story with us. It sounds like you learned from your mistakes and that is extremely important.

Basically this post covers everything in the "What Not To Do" playbook for becoming a pro.

Like the previous poster said this is more a gambling addition story than a poker pro story. Could have been sports betting, craps, blackjack or any other of the multitude of gambling games.

Greg J 08-13-2005 08:12 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
This was a good read. And very sobering. Good luck at yr new job. I hope you do well.

Poker is not for everyone, and I guess it's not for you. There are certainly a lot more important things in life.

benfranklin 08-13-2005 08:12 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
[ QUOTE ]
I was amazed to find a place filled with so many serious poker players who made tons of money

[/ QUOTE ]

Note to wanna-be pros. Don't believe everything you read on these forums.

shant 08-13-2005 08:26 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
Who the hell thinks $11K is enough to get a $1K/month apartment, a G35 coupe, a plasma, nice furniture and a bunch of computer equipment? I think you needed some financial sense before becoming a poker pro.

FlyWf 08-13-2005 08:55 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
For example, I'm pretty sure the OP is not being entirely truthful about his story.

SpicyF 08-13-2005 08:55 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
V. awesome post, this could be the thread you link to your friends that are just starting out and have hit a good run like yourself and just don't realize it was only luck.

Are you playing any poker just for fun? And if not will you start to play poker again once you have saved up some money from working?

Voltron87 08-13-2005 08:56 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was amazed to find a place filled with so many serious poker players who made tons of money

[/ QUOTE ]

Note to wanna-be pros. Don't believe everything you read on these forums.

[/ QUOTE ]


seriously, most of the people on this forum are totally full of [censored] and many of the ones who arent are miserable and are only successful at poker.

partygirluk 08-13-2005 09:01 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
Thanks for posting that. Hopefully you can turn your life around. It is positive that you finally being honest with yourself.

SpicyF 08-13-2005 09:10 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Your problems seem to have been you playing well beyond your skill and bankroll level, not to mention a seriously addictive personality.


[/ QUOTE ]

Captain Obvious has arrived!

08-13-2005 09:30 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
A lotta people forget that in poker every $ you make someone else lost, and rake just compounds the problem. People seem to talk like you walk into a poker room, get paid an hourly wage based on how good you are, and then leave. The fact of the matter is that, with rake, the average person's EV is negative when they walk into a poker room. So, earning anything in poker (even losing less than rake) is something to be proud of, IMO.

krazyace5 08-13-2005 09:39 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your problems seem to have been you playing well beyond your skill and bankroll level, not to mention a seriously addictive personality.


[/ QUOTE ]

Captain Obvious has arrived!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a valid fact to point out considering how the op says he sucks at poker but 90% of his problem was poor bankroll management skills and playing to high of limits. I mean who would be successful taking this route?

stinkypete 08-13-2005 09:45 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
[ QUOTE ]
I went out leased a nice apartment for $1k a month, financed a car (2004 Infiniti G35), bought a plasma TV, nice furniture, 2 Dell 2001FPs, and my new pro poker career was underway.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is obviously ZeeJustin

SpicyF 08-13-2005 10:13 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your problems seem to have been you playing well beyond your skill and bankroll level, not to mention a seriously addictive personality.


[/ QUOTE ]

Captain Obvious has arrived!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a valid fact to point out considering how the op says he sucks at poker but 90% of his problem was poor bankroll management skills and playing to high of limits. I mean who would be successful taking this route?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you suck at poker bankroll management skills will only make you lose at a slower pace. Why prolong the pain?

ggbman 08-13-2005 10:42 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
Very nice of you to share this sobering story with everyone. I hope that with your future endeavors, whatever they may be, you find more sucess and more self-control.

rocketlaunch 08-13-2005 10:59 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Who the hell thinks $11K is enough to get a $1K/month apartment, a G35 coupe, a plasma, nice furniture and a bunch of computer equipment? I think you needed some financial sense before becoming a poker pro.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, c'mon, he was going to win $11K EVERY MONTH. Of course he could afford all that.

Seriously, this post underlines another drawback to playing poker professionally--that is the reduced utility of the money one earns.

If someone makes $100K/year from their job, they can count on that income (well, at least up to the point of their job security). They can budget for a little over $8K/month without any real drawbacks. $X goes to rent, $Y to bills/savings, $Z to vacations/nice dinners, etc.

But someone making the same $8Kish/month playing poker has to maintain a bankroll, keep money saved up for those inevitable long downswings/break-even stretches, and so gets much less utility out of the money he earns. $X goes to rent, $Y to bills/saving, but $Z now goes to bankroll maintainence/growth or emergency funds in case one's poker income drops dramatically.

$50K that might go to a downpayment on a house for someone with a regular job is just the bankroll for the poker pro who then has to keep throwing his money down a black hole by renting.

Winning $11K for someone who is gainfully employed is a ticket for nice computer equipment, a plasma TV, downpayment on a car, whatever. $11K to a poker pro is just a little more cushion in the never-ending fight to outpace one's bills.

Steven_1974 08-13-2005 10:59 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
Just goes to show that good bankroll management can go a long way. Hopefully not too many people play way above their means and start getting themselves into so much trouble that they start bouncing checks.

No matter all the delusions of grandeur, you've gotta realize when to say when. You've gotta be able to put a stop to the insanity spending way above your means. When you can't do that, that's the time to seek some serious counseling.

TimM 08-13-2005 11:30 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Like the previous poster said this is more a gambling addition story than a poker pro story. Could have been sports betting, craps, blackjack or any other of the multitude of gambling games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Multiply his numbers by 10 and it's pretty close to my stock market experience. I never quit my job or put myself at risk of not being able to pay my bills. I did however build up about 30K in credit card debt by chasing lost money with borrowed money. I took huge positions, and then made margin calls with cash advance checks, like 4-5K at a time. I thought if I could hold on long enough, the stocks I lost money on could come back.

Once I gave up, the credit card debt took about 3-4 years to pay off, and of course I racked up a lot of interest and fees above and beyond what I actually lost. I look at my old records and I can't believe I am the same person who did that. I certainly don't approach poker this way. Possibly the difference is that I never found any successful methods of trading, and if I had I would have concentrated on them systematically, the way I do now with poker.

climber 08-13-2005 11:45 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
Nice post...good read, I'm glad to hear you have moved on. Good luck with the new job.

I nominate this to be stickied in the Zoo.

jman220 08-14-2005 01:30 AM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
[ QUOTE ]
but I wouldn't quit altogether

[/ QUOTE ]

This is bad advice.

Equal 08-14-2005 01:39 AM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
TimM... do you think if you had come across online poker before your stock experience it would have helped?

FlyWf 08-14-2005 02:01 AM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
This is how people who actually make mistakes they regret write.

edge 08-14-2005 03:26 AM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
Very interesting post. I've always wondered where the money comes from, and even if there are losing players on this site (I'm sure of it), very few will admit to it and tell their stories.

bicyclekick 08-14-2005 03:29 AM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
Thanks for sharing.

Xtian11 08-14-2005 04:38 AM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
You obviously have some potential, why give up?
A lot of us have been through the same exact experience and have continued to keep trying our hardest, thinking "long term, long term". The ones that don't give up and are able to come out on top, are the true winners. Giving up after coming this far is like an overweight person not reaching his "lose 100 lbs goal" after losing 30 lbs., but then decided to quit because it was taking too long, or would have some weeks where he wouldn't lose anything.

Jeff W 08-14-2005 04:44 AM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
[ QUOTE ]
You obviously have some potential, why give up?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you [censored] kidding me? His gambling addiction led him to dump thousands of dollars and attempt suicide and you're encouraging him to try again?

PokerBob 08-14-2005 05:08 AM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
nice post. i have just turned pro and hoepfully can avoid the pitfalls that trapped you. i hope things work out for you.

Python49 08-14-2005 05:47 AM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
Quote:

when it all came spiraling down.

I withdrew $500
I stopped reading here. This is where you shot yourself in the foot. Everything else that happened from this point on is expected.

nmt09 08-14-2005 08:34 AM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
Spice it seems obvious to us but it didn't seem all that obvious to the OP hence why I mentioned it.

This is the really ugly side of poker that I'm determinded to steer clear of and I'm glad the guy is getting his life back together.

Stack 08-14-2005 08:39 AM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
Great post. There should be a link to this thread in every success story post.

I admire your courage, and your honesty towards yourself.

I wish you success in your new job.

Stack.

BigBaitsim (milo) 08-14-2005 11:06 AM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
Thanks for the post. Your description sounds like a bad combination of poor BR management and Pathological Gambling.

I agree with an earlier poster. This should show up as a link in any "should I go pro?" thread.

Uppercut 08-14-2005 11:08 AM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Giving up after coming this far is like an overweight person not reaching his "lose 100 lbs goal" after losing 30 lbs., but then decided to quit because it was taking too long, or would have some weeks where he wouldn't lose anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is not that our hero only lost 30 pounds (to continue your analogy), but that he would lose 10 pounds and then go on a binge and gain 50 pounds back. Quitting is clearly the healthier option here.

fyodor 08-14-2005 11:13 AM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
Ok it's a very sad and sobering story, and maybe I'm just a heartless bastard, but by the time I got into the 2nd paragraph I had tears in my eyes from laughter.

Stuff like[ QUOTE ]
With my remaining $500, I entered a $215 SNG and was out in the first level.

[/ QUOTE ]coming after stuff in paragraph one like[ QUOTE ]
I was bragging to people how much money I was winning, making plans to buy plasma tvs and cars and other toys

[/ QUOTE ]was like the best of Seinfeld.

lefty rosen 08-14-2005 12:15 PM

I did the same thing 10 years ago!
 
I played 5/10 live and was able to turn a measly 600 dollar students bank account into a 2k bankroll and then never thought I could lose made about 30 K over 2 years playing part-time during the school year and fulltime in the summer months, but I spent like a psycho on dinners,drinking etc and then hit a flat spot and lost my roll in one month of bad play coupled with tilt. Proceeded to dump in another 2 or 3K back in small buyins where I got bullied with an over pair or didn't fold to obvious beats. Poker is a tough tough game to be a winner and bankroll management is the hardest thing about the game(once you understand what wins).

Zetack 08-14-2005 05:54 PM

Re: My failure as a poker pro (very long)
 
[ QUOTE ]

Most players wouldn't think about throwing the amount of money you did into game after game. I'm playing $1.20 Sit and Go tables because that is what my bankroll dictates ( and my skill level couldn't find a lower buy-in [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] ).



[/ QUOTE ]

For what its worth, Absolute has fifty cents + 10 cents sng's. And I've heard there are sites with even smaller sngs.


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