basics: opening A2o in SB
 

is there a better line to take here? how do you play this against calling stations, total donkeys, maniacs, tags, etc?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 6 BB

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

what else can you do? it bothers me and I feel sometimes I'm just getting played back at but that board has hit a decent amount of hands..

sometimes I think a case can be made for calling down a maniac but that's about it.

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

unforunately i play it the same.

fwiw, there are some things i plan on experiemnting with in the future. blind stealing was one of them, and what a good range is, as i know some poeple who are stealing 97s but not Q7o.

the other one is from the sb. i think you can have a really large range of "stealing" hands against loose passives or overly tight opponents. but against good or moderatley good players, your range should be tighter then that of what your'e opening from the btn. maybe some headsup play on a site where the oop is the sb would be helpful in learning what a good opening range is.

anyways, back to the hand. i think you played it fine. A2o is def. an opening hand in this situation. and you gotta fold this turn

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

This is standard. Against some players who are bet-when-checked to types, or the overaggressive (borderline maniac) it can be profitable to check-call to showdown here.

Jeff_W and I talked about this type of play vs an overaggressive player - however, once you've done this a few times it becomes obvious when we are trying to get to showdown with a bluff-catcher, so we have to mix it up by checking some stronger hands on the turn (c/r perhaps) and betting some weaker ones again.

Against the majority of 5/10ers your line is better, however.(LPs/TAGs/TPs)

Surf

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

I don't open raise A2. I will just complete. I am not big on calling down with A high. Your 2 is useless. If you spike an A you won't get paid off. If you don't raise and an A falls you get paid a more.

I will vary this according to who Iam playing if I think there is a chance that they fold to a raise then I am of course raising.

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

Completing with A2o is very, very weak. IMO, it is a 99% raise hand - the 1% of the time I wouldn't raise would be if a very, very tough aggressive player was in the BB and I felt like I was going to be reraised and outplayed postflop. Then I probably just fold it.

There are many reasons why raising A2o is a good play. If people are automatically folding when an Ace hits in a blind steal situation to your flop bets, steal more...make that A on the flop the perfect bluff steal card when you have Q8 or J9 or 10-7.

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

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Completing with A2o is very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very weak.

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fixed

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

ty Bob. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

i haven't done, or really nkow the neccessary work to show it. but i think that against good oppoennts you should fold A2o in this position. and if i have the time, i think i'll try and do the math/ reasoning out.

stealthcow-

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you spike an A you won't get paid off.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't seem true. In blind battles, villain will almost always pay you off if they hit a worse pair. It seems that in blind battles, many SH players simply ignore the top card on the flop (i.e. if villain has PP, he's seeing a showdown). This is obviously player-dependent, but esp. in blind battles, it has been my experience that you will definitely get paid off by worse hands, including bluffs, semi-bluffs, worse pairs, etc.

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

i don't even bet the turn.

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
It seems that in blind battles, many SH players simply ignore the top card on the flop

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and they are generally correct to do so.
HEFAP recommends changing the highest flop-card into a 2 (in your head) and play accordingly. This will be close to correct play much of the time.

If your opponent is so weak that they won't 'pay you off' when an ace hits the flop then you should probably be raising even more in this situation...to set up future steals on the flop when you raise his BB with QJ and you miss the flop completely but an A or K hits.


I just don't see how folding A2 against strong opponents would be warranted here.
Makes very little sense to me and seems to go very much against recommendations for short-handed or heads-up play from HEFAP or this forum.

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

I agree 100%.

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don't even bet the turn.

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Against calling-station types I give up on the turn as well.

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It seems that in blind battles, many SH players simply ignore the top card on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]



and they are generally correct to do so.
HEFAP recommends changing the highest flop-card into a 2 (in your head) and play accordingly. This will be close to correct play much of the time.

If your opponent is so weak that they won't 'pay you off' when an ace hits the flop then you should probably be raising even more in this situation...to set up future steals on the flop when you raise his BB with QJ and you miss the flop completely but an A or K hits.


I just don't see how folding A2 against strong opponents would be warranted here.
Makes very little sense to me and seems to go very much against recommendations for short-handed or heads-up play from HEFAP or this forum.

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the 2/5 structure of the blinds influences the decision here. I'll open raise 45-50% of my hands from the SB but A2o and A3o are passes.

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll open raise 45-50% of my hands from the SB but A2o and A3o are passes.

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A2o should easily be in your top 45% of hands you would want to play heads-up.
(S&amp;M in HEFAP were going off top 40% of hands and any ace was included...and obviously so imo).


I don't even agree with the idea that the blind-structure makes a differene with the any-ace hands. I would raise this in a battle of the blinds even if the SB was zero. And certainly raise it when it's 2/5 or 1/2 or 2/3 or anything else.

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don't even bet the turn

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Care to explain why? Many hands have flopped 2 overcards here and might be willing to peel the flop and hope they hit their hand or pick up a draw. Absent of a read, I feel a turn bet is warrented every time.

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

I agree.
Lots of players will call on the flop with their overcards or even 22 or something....and then look at the bet on the turn and say 'meh...I don't have any part of this board nor a 5...I fold'
The chances of winning the pot with a turn bet are too strong to just give it up (which checking essentially does since he will now bluff at it even with nothing much of the time and you obviously can't call)

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

Prelfop: I raise
Flop: I bet
Turn: I check and fold to a bet
River: I bet and fold to a raise

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Many hands have flopped 2 overcards here and might be willing to peel the flop and hope they hit their hand or pick up a draw. Absent of a read, I feel a turn bet is warrented every time.

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After a called turn bet do you check fold the river?

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

because 75% of the time i get called and end up check/folding the river.

i think microbob and the others are too optimisitic when it comes to fold equity here.

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

he would have to be pretty gutsy to call this with any kind of overcards which he could have.

i agree that i tend to be optimistic about my opponents' crappy holding though.


yes, I check-fold the river after a turn-bet...but I don't think it gets called 75% of the time.
Much of the time it will be raised and you can more safely fold....or you can induce a fold from your opponent.

I think this bluff works more than 75% of the time.

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

also - when he does call there is still the chance that your ace outs are good.
and certainly the chances of a rivered 5 leading to a split-pot are decent as well.

so on the river there are 7 cards that you're reasonably happy to see (I wouldn't go so far to call them 'outs' though because you really have no idea where you stand)

this isn't THAT much of a factor...just something that occured to me....that you aren't COMPLETELY dead if he only calls.
But the original idea is that a bluff here can still win the hand....and checking almost automatically loses no matter what he has.

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this bluff works more than 75% of the time.


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a bluff in the literal sesne (trying to fold a better hand) is effective 0% of the time here, imo.

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

don't forget he sometimes still calls the turn w/ overcards and then checks the river and your A high is good.

checking this turn is weak IMO.

Re: basics: opening A2o in SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this bluff works more than 75% of the time.


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a bluff in the literal sesne (trying to fold a better hand) is effective 0% of the time here, imo.

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True, however, there is a quite large # of holdings that villain could have that we are ahead of - overcards, 1over/1under, some sort of straight draw / picked up FD.

We bet the turn to protect our hand - we don't mind him folding correctly because we can't call a bet if we check...we make way more mistakes check-folding the turn (by letting him bet us out of the pot with worse hands) than by betting and sometimes having him call with a better hand.

Surf