high implied odds?
 

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 7 handed) converter

Preflop: econ_tim is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, econ_tim checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, econ_tim checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO folds, SB folds, econ_tim calls.

MP1 is TAA, MP2 is LPP.

Re: high implied odds?
 

High reverse implied odds. Fold the flop.

Re: high implied odds?
 

It's pretty close, but I think it's probably OK to peel in this case. You're getting 7:1 closing the action, and if you hit, anyone with an A will think he's at least splitting and will certainly stick around (and might raise or call a raise). I think you'll make up the 2 BB you need if you hit on the turn.

Edit: I didn't even consider that your T's might be good. I think that tips it to an easier call.

Re: high implied odds?
 

Yes. Call the flop with your overcards gutshots getting 7:1 closing the action. Don't fold.

I think there is a decent argument for leading at this flop too, especially if you are planning on calling 1 bet anyway

Re: high implied odds?
 

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High reverse implied odds. Fold the flop.

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How do reverse implied odds apply here? I thought that would apply more if he had, say AT and was drawing to overs (since someone might have something like A5 already).

Re: high implied odds?
 

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High reverse implied odds. Fold the flop.

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Gah, I suck at poker. I only counted "overcards" and not a gutshot. Call's fine. Nothing to see in that first reply. Move along...

Re: high implied odds?
 

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I think there is a decent argument for leading at this flop too, especially if you are planning on calling 1 bet anyway

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I can't think of one...

Re: high implied odds?
 

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Yes. Call the flop with your overcards gutshots getting 7:1 closing the action. Don't fold.

I think there is a decent argument for leading at this flop too, especially if you are planning on calling 1 bet anyway

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You still have 3 players yet to act. Do you really want to take the chance of betting and having it raised or possibly reraised when all you have is a gutshot and weak overcards? Your flop bet will take this pot down very rarely as some of them will have overcards to the board and will call or raise. Checking in this spot and waiting to see what develops after you act is automatic.

Re: high implied odds?
 

7:1. Fold, since it could be raised behind, and you might chop with another 6 even if you hit, and your implied odds are pretty small since everybody can read a 4 to a straight on the board.

Re: high implied odds?
 

He's closing the action, and he only has to make up 2 BB for it to be a good call. That should be pretty easy.

Edit: And his T's are worth something.

Re: high implied odds?
 

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You still have 3 players yet to act. Do you really want to take the chance of betting and having it raised or possibly reraised when all you have is a gutshot and weak overcards? Your flop bet will take this pot down very rarely as some of them will have overcards to the board and will call or raise

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Sure with 3 players left to act it isn't picture perfect betting situation, and if the players left to act are aggressive (he said 1 tag and 1 passive), then I am all for a check. I was just making a point that betting this fairly ragged rainbow flop with 2 (albeit weak) overcards and a gutshot should probably be considered. There are other positive things to come out of a flop bet besides taking it down on the flop. But...

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Checking in this spot and waiting to see what develops after you act is automatic.

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I didn't realize that this check was automatic. I stand corrected.

Re: high implied odds?
 

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I was just making a point that betting this fairly ragged rainbow flop with 2 (albeit weak) overcards and a gutshot should probably be considered. There are other positive things to come out of a flop bet besides taking it down on the flop.

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Can you give a few examples and show how they work here?

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But...

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Checking in this spot and waiting to see what develops after you act is automatic.

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I didn't realize that this check was automatic. I stand corrected.

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It's not automatic because someone says it's automatic.

Re: high implied odds?
 

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I didn't realize that this check was automatic. I stand corrected.

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Whatever dude. Play your way. Bet those ragged boards into a large filed with nothing and spew your stack all you want. Some decisions aren't close, this is one of them.

Re: high implied odds?
 

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I didn't realize that this check was automatic. I stand corrected.

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Whatever dude. Play your way. Bet those ragged boards into a large filed with nothing and spew your stack all you want. Some decisions aren't close, this is one of them.

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Why? Let's say he was the SB - I might fold T2 in this situation if I was the BB and the SB bets into me. Wouldn't that be worth a small bet?

Re: high implied odds?
 

*grunch*

fold it dude. 7:1 ain't good enough, especially since you could be drawing to a split pot.

Re: high implied odds?
 

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Why? Let's say he was the SB - I might fold T2 in this situation if I was the BB and the SB bets into me. Wouldn't that be worth a small bet?

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Raising to protect your overcard outs seems like a waste to me. I don't think a flop bet will get anybody to fold a pair or even overcards very often at all. Yes it might happen but you are far more likely to wind up being raised by a LP bettor. You might only get called in two spots but has that really improved your winning chances that much? You are still OOP, with nothing and have no idea if either of your overcard outs are any good at this point. You really want the gutshot in which case you will likely beat all takers so you don't really need folds here.

In this spot with about 5 outs I prefer to hope for a free look at the turn (yes ragged flops like this will sometimes get checked through) or at most pay exactly one bet to try to hit my gutshot. I can easily fold this longshot if it's two bets back to me.

The worst case scenario IMO is betting and seeing it raised (and possibly 3-bet) behind you. You will have to call a raise and will wind up paying two bets for your gutshot draw (or fold to a 3-bet and pay a SB for nothing). This scenario will happen quite often when you bet this flop.

I see many examples of needless aggression in this forum. Betting into 4 players with nothing but a gutshot and tenuous overcards just because the board is ragged is such an example.

Re: high implied odds?
 

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I didn't realize that this check was automatic. I stand corrected.

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Whatever dude. Play your way. Bet those ragged boards into a large filed with nothing and spew your stack all you want. Some decisions aren't close, this is one of them.

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Why? Let's say he was the SB - I might fold T2 in this situation if I was the BB and the SB bets into me. Wouldn't that be worth a small bet?

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Tell me how the T2 example is somehow representative of things that might actually happen.

Re: high implied odds?
 

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*grunch*

fold it dude. 7:1 ain't good enough, especially since you could be drawing to a split pot.

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With hero's T out, and the fact that almost any ace will pay off a lower straight, 7-1 is definately worth the peel.

Re: high implied odds?
 

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I didn't realize that this check was automatic. I stand corrected.

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Whatever dude. Play your way. Bet those ragged boards into a large filed with nothing and spew your stack all you want. Some decisions aren't close, this is one of them.

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Why? Let's say he was the SB - I might fold T2 in this situation if I was the BB and the SB bets into me. Wouldn't that be worth a small bet?

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Tell me how the T2 example is somehow representative of things that might actually happen.

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I was merely pointing out a hypothetical situation when a bet might actually help. If I was in the BB, and I had T2 on this flop, and it was shorthanded, and the SB (let's say it was our hero with T6) decided to bet into me, I would fold. It's just not worth it in a small, shorthanded pot. This is clearly not the situation in this hand. Also, as Droolie rightfully points out, there are way too many people in this hand to make bluffing a gutshot even a decent choice. I just wanted him to elaborate on his viewpoint instead of giving the "it's not even close" as an answer.

Re: high implied odds?
 

How much value are you giving the tens in this spot? Two . . . two and a half outs?

Re: high implied odds?
 

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How much value are you giving the tens in this spot? Two . . . two and a half outs?

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One possibly one and a half.

The T's don't give you the nuts so they need to be heavily discounted. If you hit on the turn they give you top pair weak kicker OOP. You might be dominated and if you are ahead you could easily lose to many river cards.

Re: high implied odds?
 

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How much value are you giving the tens in this spot? Two . . . two and a half outs?

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One possibly one and a half.

The T's don't give you the nuts so they need to be heavily discounted. If you hit on the turn they give you top pair weak kicker OOP. You might be dominated and if you are ahead you could easily lose to many river cards.

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So if we give the sixes the same, say 1.5 outs, at the most since if a six comes a four makes a straight, a call here is justified since the implied odds may make up for what we're losing now in terms of pot odds?

How do you figure out implied odds? Is it just a guess at how much action you think is going down in the rest of the hand based on what has happened so far?

Re: high implied odds?
 

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So if we give the sixes the same, say 1.5 outs, at the most since if a six comes a four makes a straight, a call here is justified since the implied odds may make up for what we're losing now in terms of pot odds?

How do you figure out implied odds? Is it just a guess at how much action you think is going down in the rest of the hand based on what has happened so far?

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Yes implied odds allow us to peel because if we hit our str8 on the turn we will probably make at least 4 more BB's on the hand.

Implied odds are just an estimate of how much money you expect to go in the pot on later betting rounds. There is no formula just a guess. Use your reads of the other players, the board texture, the likely range of hands that are out against you to determine how much you expect win (or lose) on future betting rounds.

When drawing estimate the average bets you would expect to go into the pot from your opponents on the turn or and river if you hit your hand (preferrably a big hand or even the nuts) you add these bets to your immediate pot odds to determine whether to call or fold. These implied odds are added to your immediate pot odds because you are not compelled to put in any money in later rounds if your draw misses. If you are drawing to less than the nuts discount your estimate.

However if you have a made hand implied odds can actually make a hand that has proper immediate pot odds odds to call become a fold. For instance top pair weak kicker on a draw heavy board might compel you to fold if you are bet into on the flop if the pot is small becauese it will be you who pays the future bets before realizing you are beaten.

Re: high implied odds?
 

[censored] no. Fold.