Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

Villian is pretty loose, moderately aggro and tricky...He's not "good", but he's not a complete moran. I'm not running tracker so I dont have any numbers but I'd guess 35-45 VPIP, 8-12 PFR. A few hands earlier he bluff raised my river bet and showed after I folded; if that helps any

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button folds, BB calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero...

Make it 3? Wait and raise any river? Is this situation even worth discussing?

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

I would fold preflop (open on the CO tho).

I call and raise the river.

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] just looked to pretty to fold PF against these monkeys

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

Call and raise the river. This should be SOP here.

Brad

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

It's 5-handed, not 6 -- UTG with 6 people I probably let A6s go, but in MP to start I may or may not play it (depending on what kind of mood I am in, the phase of the moon, crap like that).

Raise now if you think he is semi-bluffing (and is on a draw that will pay to see the river but not showdown if they brick), raise the river if you think he will bluff again on the river.

-K

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

Let me make sure i understand this line.

I guess 5-handed it's pretty unlikely that the case A is out, and that if it is it's matched with a better kicker than ours.

When the A comes on the turn, villain is inclined to believe his T (or maybe his 8) is good, and so bets out. If we raise here, he will probably fold a worse hand, but 3-bet a better hand, so that's no good. By flat calling, we hope to induce another bet on the river, and then we raise, because our river raise has a better chance of getting called than a raise on the turn (and even if it doesn't, we win one more BB).

Are we folding to a river 3-bet? If so, we could save 1 BB by raising on the turn and getting 3-bet there and folding. But we're probably ahead.

Is this the right idea? Did i miss anything?

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

Why not just pop villian on the turn for a raise? Looks like he would call it.

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just pop villian on the turn for a raise? Looks like he would call it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone who bluff raises the river and shows it at this level is usually a habitual bluffer. Therefore he will probably bet again on the river guaranteeing us to get 1 more bet in. He might also be more willing to call the river raise with something weak netting us 2 more bets as our raise is odd. We're not guaranteed to get another bet in if we raise the turn and he's outright bluffing, or betting something really weak. If he's the type to only bet a decent hand or semi bluff with something like KQ and won't bet again on the river then a turn raise is justified. Against this opponent though waiting is better.

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just pop villian on the turn for a raise? Looks like he would call it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This subject is very complicated. Let me give you an expert example on this topic.

You limp UTG with A8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and the next guy raises. Three players coldcall and the BB makes it 3-bets. Everyone calls. Six to the flop for 18 SB.

Flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks to you and you bet. UTG+1 raises. Everyone folds to the BB who makes it 3-bets. You cap and UTG+1 folds.

Turn (14 BB): A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB bets, You Call

River (16 BB): 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB bets, You raise, BB 3-bets and You fold


If you can understand this hand, you have this game down to a T. I'll give more thoughts on OP hand later. The main considerations are the villians ability to bluff and the pot size. As you can see though from the example I provided, hand reading is VERY important as well.

In the OP's hand, the villian's most likely holding is Jx. Is there any point in raising him if he does hold something like JT in a 5 BB pot?

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

After looking better at the hand posted I can see that it would be better to wait and pop villain on the river. Unless I'm looking at it wrong, we're either ahead and no river card can help villain, or we're behind and drawing near dead. (We're behind AT[4 ways], A8[4 ways], TT and 88) But I don't see villain holding any of those hands.

With this new hand that you posted I don't see why Hero would raise the river if he's going to fold to a raise? Why not just give a crying call and see if villain has the straight?

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

Shillx, are we really afraid of the straight here? Would BB 3-bet PF with 98, 43, or 83? It seems like AK, A7-A5 or 77-55 are the culprits here ... maybe even your A8 hand. (Tough to 3 bet the field OOP with 77-55 though, no?)

If we're afraid of these, why not raise the turn here to test the waters?

Worst-case is that BB 3-bets the turn, we call for the straight &amp; fold to a bet if we miss assuming the baby set or better A-kicker. But, in this case, we're no worse off than the hand as you've laid it out.

We could win if the villain has KK, QQ.

We could earn a call on the turn &amp; check on the river (which we could take or not), saving a bet if we're beat.

No?

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

Here's my take on Shillx's example.

I think BB would only 3-bet PF with AA-TT and AK. The 3-bet the flop on tells me he has an overpair and not AK. On the turn you now beat KK-TT, putting yourself as a huge favorite to win the hand. However, if you raise the turn he will probably fold KK-TT right there. So you smooth call and let him bet out on the river, and raise him there. He 3-bets again, which tells you he can beat your pair of aces because the river card doesn't change anything. So I think the BB has AA and that is that.

Am I way off?

Edit: fixed a couple typos

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

I agree with Fizzle's thinking. AA
still don't think I would have played it this way.

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

You call because it's heads up, you have a monster which the bb probably doesn't give you credit for, the pot is small, and it's extremely likely the villian has a better hand. He's aggressive and either bluffing or semi-bluffing so you want to squeeze some extra bet out of him.

If you raise you allow him to get away cheaply.

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

Your reasoning is good but I think you're missing a few hands from the initial range. I could see BB 3-betting here against this many opponents with a few high suited connectors like AQs/KQs, maybe even QJs. But after the rainbow low card flop these hands would all be removed from my list as well.

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

[ QUOTE ]
I could see BB 3-betting here against this many opponents with a few high suited connectors like AQs/KQs, maybe even QJs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? But you'll be out of position for the rest of the hand.

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

[ QUOTE ]
Really? But you'll be out of position for the rest of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, the position would be bad. But against 5 players you have huge equity with these hands as they have high card/suited/connected strength.

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

Interestingly I just ran this through pokerstove. I think calling and check/raising a favorable flop might be a better play for those hands against a tight raiser or even a tag. We have an edge but not a huge one.

Against a tight raiser

514,834 games 18.631 secs 27,633 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 29.0121 % 27.63% 01.42% { QQ+, AJs+, AQo+ }
Hand 2: 19.1182 % 17.74% 01.40% { AQs, KQs, QJs }
Hand 3: 13.0405 % 12.29% 00.77% { random }
Hand 4: 12.9272 % 12.17% 00.78% { random }
Hand 5: 12.9810 % 12.24% 00.76% { random }
Hand 6: 12.9211 % 12.17% 00.77% { random }


Against a TAG

277,015 games 9.081 secs 30,504 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 25.2939 % 23.92% 01.37% { 99+, ATs+, KJs+, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 21.7295 % 20.30% 01.42% { AQs, KQs, QJs }
Hand 3: 13.2050 % 12.39% 00.81% { random }
Hand 4: 13.2257 % 12.41% 00.82% { random }
Hand 5: 13.2817 % 12.48% 00.80% { random }
Hand 6: 13.2642 % 12.47% 00.80% { random }

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

[ QUOTE ]

Yup, the position would be bad. But against 5 players you have huge equity with these hands as they have high card/suited/connected strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, but what about your relative position to the pre-flop raiser? With those hands if you hit a nice flop you can check-raise a big field for 2 bets assuming the pfr leads out. You're sort of giving up an edge now to exploit a bigger edge later. Just a thought.

Edit: I missed the poker stove post just above, looks like I was on the right track.

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

I also don't like this play at all.

Winning a small pot is still infinitely better than losing a bigger pot by mucking to one final bet.

If he did have KK-TT (using the hand range from a prior post), then I'd be more than happy to win the pot with a turn-raise, rather than allow the Villain a miracle card on the river just to build a bigger pot. Also, we don't know that he has KK-TT, so raising the turn gets us the additional information sooner, and can possibly get some hands to fold. Given the river appeared to be a blank, I'd bet after a check &amp; probably make a crying call if he raised.

If BB had AA or AK-AQ, I still don't like this play. Raising the turn would most likely cause the 3 bets to be in on the turn (certainly with AA .. but maybe just a call with AK-AQ saving you 1 bet from the above posted action), when you still have a live straight redraw to beat him!!! If the river is a blank, you can fold to his bet (or check behind if he's crazy enough to try a check raise), and you still muck having lost the 3 bets of the posted action. If the river is not a blank, you can win a few more from him.

Given you're going to fold to a river 3 bet, I don't the raise after your redraw to beat your most feared hands didn't come.

Perhaps I'm missing some information about the BB, or something else altogether. I don't see it yet.

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why not just pop villian on the turn for a raise? Looks like he would call it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This subject is very complicated. Let me give you an expert example on this topic.

You limp UTG with A8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and the next guy raises. Three players coldcall and the BB makes it 3-bets. Everyone calls. Six to the flop for 18 SB.

Flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks to you and you bet. UTG+1 raises. Everyone folds to the BB who makes it 3-bets. You cap and UTG+1 folds.

Turn (14 BB): A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB bets, You Call

River (16 BB): 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB bets, You raise, BB 3-bets and You fold


If you can understand this hand, you have this game down to a T. I'll give more thoughts on OP hand later. The main considerations are the villians ability to bluff and the pot size. As you can see though from the example I provided, hand reading is VERY important as well.

In the OP's hand, the villian's most likely holding is Jx. Is there any point in raising him if he does hold something like JT in a 5 BB pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't raise the river in your example. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Rob

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

djames I agree that it would take some serious nuts to fold the river for one bet. I'm not sure if I could do it in that spot, but a river 3-bet is pretty damn good sign of strength.

If he has KK-TT, the turn bet he put in is costing him money because he's only drawing to two outs. So even though you let him see the river card, you're still making +EV. If you raise, he folds, and you don't win any more.

Do you think he still has AK-AQ on a flop check-raise 3-bet? There's only 1 combo of AA, so you're looking at KK-TT most of the time, so you want to optimize your play for those hands.

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

If you can't fold to the 3bet, you shouldnt be raising in the first place

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

You mean extremely unlikely here?

and it's extremely likely the villian has a better hand

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

Yes, a river 3-bet is an incredible sign of strength. I'm not debating whether the BB is strong given his river 3-bet.

I'm debating the turn check, which I don't like.

Given the turn check, I definitely hate the river raise if the Hero is going to fold to a 3-bet.

You're making your move after your redraw is gone. Make your move when your redraw is alive ... at the turn. Win the 15 big bets when you're ahead, win huge (18+) when your draw hits. Lose 0-2 bets less when you're crushed by AA (or ridiculous 87 or 77-55 .. while these are ridiculous holdings, only the PF move would have been maniacal).

You seem so worried about winning more (meaning 2-3 big bets more) ... why aren't you concerned about winning period (in this hand only please, not in general)? The pot pre-turn betting is already 14 big bets!!! His turn bet makes 15 ... raise to try and maximize your chances to win the pot right then (and proceed as indicated in my earlier post based on the BBs response)! Without a turn raise, you have no idea whether a turn call &amp; a river raise is +EV. You could be way behind, and I still abhor the river raise with the intention of folding to a 3-bet.

No one likes the turn raise? I've only heard about the river action. If you hate the turn raise (in Shillx's hand and not the original hand starting this thread), Why?

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

I'm sorry to hijack your thread Pedro, but the point was to show that it is sometimes better to just call in these spots even when the pot is large. This is a made up hand, but the only logical hand to give the BB is AA when he 3-bets the river.

The flop play is pretty interesting too. When you are up agiainst 2 PFR's, the chances are good then one of them holds A-big and the other a big pair. We bet the flop and hope that UTG+1 raises in order to force the BB's AK or AQ or whatever with 2 cold. Our A8 would really like to free up those 2 extra outs those times that UTG+1 has QQ or JJ or something. When the BB makes it 3-bets, it becomes apparent that he is on a big pair, and now we cap to see if UTG+1 will fold AK-AT if that he what he has. Obviously it won't always work, or you will run into two overpairs, but that is the idea. We have a good amount of equity with our straight draw, but we would really like an extra 2 outs in this huge pot.

Anyway, let's say that the BB is on AA-QQ when he cpas the flop. After we look at the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on 4th street, he is now a 12:1 favorite to have a worse hand then we do. Only the case AA can beat us, so we have to put a raise in somewhere. If we are going to do it, it should be on the river.

If we raise now and have the worst hand, we have pay 3 BB just to see if we can make our straight. If he does have KK or QQ then we risk losing him where he will be more inclined to payoff a river raise. If we raise now, he knows that he is going to have to put in another 2 BB to showdown. If we call now and raise the river, it is just one more BB to see what we have. It would be tough to resist when the river doesn't appear to help anyone. The BB doesn't know that we have an ace by the way we played this hand (we might have 88 or 99 or 87s) so figure that he would bet all of his hands on this 4th street card that probably didn't help us.

Brad

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

You know how people have been saying you overthink things? This is what they are talking about. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

To OP: At 5/10 I would raise now, because they don't fold. If your villain will pay off with any pair, then raise now. Against a tougher opponent I agree waiting is better, but I still might raise the turn to cover the times I raise the turn with KQ high there.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Turn Action: Donked by a Trickster
 

I'll take 1 out of 2.

Shill, you say we have to put a raise in somewhere, so when you say it only costs us 1 bet to see what we have on the river, that's not entirely true. Yes, only 1 bet has gone in before you see the card, but when it misses, you're going to raise anyway. That means you're putting three bets in regardless. So try to win the 15 bets on the turn when you may redraw against AA. In fact, if a 9 or 4 came on the river, there's a chance a "smart" BB would check anyway eliminating your guaranteed raise (of course I think that his check would be bad, but there's a chance it will happen).

Forgetting all of this ... who folds in micro-limit to a 21:1 showdown? I might even the BB could mis-click that 3-bet reraise 4.54% of the time!