Defending from SB with K8o against LAG
 

I was having a discussion with a friend about whether you'd play K8o against a steal raise from the button. Button is very aggressive and will play back at you.

I said no, my friend said he thought maybe yes. Here's my thinking: against a RH, K8o is barely a favorite hot/cold. (Its something like 56-44.)

So in order for you to have an edge against the villain, you need to assume he's stealing with any two. If you make him even slighly selective, you're going to be a dog.

In addition to the equity reasons for not defending with K8o, there are also strategic reasons not to defend. In the hypothetical, villain is aggressive, and can be expected to play back at you. So regardless of whether you call and try to see a cheap flop, or three-bet to try and "take control" of the hand, you're going to need to hit the flop to feel comfortable. Obviously, you're a dog to do this, so the simple fact is that the majority of the time, you're going to find it very tricky to play this hand postflop.

In view of the dubious preflop equity that K8o has, and the fact that an aggressive opponent in positino will keep the heat on you after the flop, this hand strikes me as a pretty clear fold. Against the type of opponent who will fold the flop easily if it misses him, I'd be more inclined to play the hand.

Comments?

EDIT: My friend tells me that the actual read on the villain is that he will play back at you, but will fold to a re-raise. In my mind, this doesnt change the math any. Even if he will fold to a three-bet, in order to force him off a garbage bluff, you need to commit to spewing on the flop. I think this adds significant variance, with negligible gains in EV.

Re: Defending from SB with K8o against LAG
 

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In view of the dubious preflop equity that K8o has, and the fact that an aggressive opponent in positino will keep the heat on you after the flop, this hand strikes me as a pretty clear fold. Against the type of opponent who will fold the flop easily if it misses him, I'd be more inclined to play the hand.


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Re: Defending from SB with K8o against LAG
 

I think this type of situation has a lot to do with table image. When I fold this to a LAG I'm inviting him to steamroll me every chance he gets. Sometimes I will fold this, but many times I am going to play back at him and make his J7o steal bets pay.

Re: Defending from SB with K8o against LAG
 

Let me correct Derek again because I am the dubious friend [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The villain will raise 50% of his cards from the button. The hero is in the SB with K8o, its a raise or fold scenario however in this case it might be wise to call.

If the Hero raises, 80% of the time the villain will call the 3-bet and use position on the flop to raise for a re-steal. If the hero 3-bets his is guaranteed to fold nearly every time.

The villain will always raise the flop HU guaranteed if I take the lead, its his standard line. I also said my standard line has become to 3-bet him on the flop, and he almost always folds.

If the Hero calls.... then there is the variable of the big blind.

Normally I fold this hand, but the concept of 3-betting this opponent is interesting to me. Does anyone just call?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Defending from SB with K8o against LAG
 

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If the hero 3-bets his is guaranteed to fold nearly every time when he hits air. However, if he has a holding worthy of showdown, he will check-call.

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Im assuming this is also implicit in his behavior.

Re: Defending from SB with K8o against LAG
 

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Let me correct Derek again because I am the dubious friend [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The villain will raise 50% of his cards from the button. The hero is in the SB with K8o, its a raise or fold scenario however in this case it might be wise to call.

If the Hero raises, 80% of the time the villain will call the 3-bet and use position on the flop to raise for a re-steal. If the hero 3-bets his is guaranteed to fold nearly every time.

The villain will always raise the flop HU guaranteed if I take the lead, its his standard line. I also said my standard line has become to 3-bet him on the flop, and he almost always folds.

If the Hero calls.... then there is the variable of the big blind.

Normally I fold this hand, but the concept of 3-betting this opponent is interesting to me. Does anyone just call?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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Only one problem with this line. A villian like this doesn't exist. One who will raise 1/2 their hand on the button, auto raise the flop when you bet out, but then fold almost all the time you 3bet?

riiight.

Re: Defending from SB with K8o against LAG
 

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If the hero 3-bets his is guaranteed to fold nearly every time when he hits air. However, if he has a holding worthy of showdown, he will check-call.

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Im assuming this is also implicit in his behavior.

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but of course [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

He will auto-raise me reguardless of his holdings, and fold to a 3-bet if he has nothing (which is the vast majority of the time).

So... who 3-bets with K8o here?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Defending from SB with K8o against LAG
 

So I'm in the small blind (from the subject)? Yeah, I don't like it. In addition to the problems already cited, you have to worry about BB. Occassionally he wakes up with a real hand. Even if he doesn't, just having him come along sucks. Playing K8o out of position in a three way pot for several bets is not fun. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: Defending from SB with K8o against LAG
 

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So... who 3-bets with K8o here?

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Not me.

Rob

Re: Defending from SB with K8o against LAG
 

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So I'm in the small blind (from the subject)? Yeah, I don't like it. In addition to the problems already cited, you have to worry about BB. Occassionally he wakes up with a real hand. Even if he doesn't, just having him come along sucks. Playing K8o out of position in a three way pot for several bets is not fun. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

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Agree, no way I play this.

Re: Defending from SB with K8o against LAG
 

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The villain will raise 50% of his cards from the button. The hero is in the SB with K8o, its a raise or fold scenario however in this case it might be wise to call.


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I would fold and I don't think it is close, especially since it sounds like he must be raising the top 50% of hands, not any 2 cards. However, I think calling is much worse than raising here. You don't want to play K8o from the worst position three-handed.

Re: Defending from SB with K8o against LAG
 

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you have to worry about BB. Occassionally he wakes up with a real hand. Even if he doesn't, just having him come along sucks.

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Yep, BB is the main problem. Second problem is that - if u listen to Bob Ciaffone - u need about as good hand to go to war from SB as the button because you being out of position is worth the SB.

We got worse hand then button we got BB to worry about. Easy fold. If button is extremly bad postflop I can see myself calling here, but then we are not talking about defending, but about using the fact that u play a worthless player.

Re: Defending from SB with K8o against LAG
 

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The villain will raise 50% of his cards from the button. The hero is in the SB with K8o, its a raise or fold scenario however in this case it might be wise to call.


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I would fold and I don't think it is close, especially since it sounds like he must be raising the top 50% of hands, not any 2 cards. However, I think calling is much worse than raising here. You don't want to play K8o from the worst position three-handed.

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I agree that limping is not the thing to do, this is generally a raise or fold situation. I have always folded in the past, but against this specific player I began to think if this is in fact the best option, or am I missing out on an opportunity to punish the button for attempting the steal play over and over again. Thanks for your input guys, I will continue to fold.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Defending from SB with K8o against LAG
 

most of the bets go in postflop. don't tell me about preflop edge. who care about that anyway? you can outplay this guy postflop and your hand can often make it to showdown, so it's a good 3-bet. the BB is important here though, as there have been many times where I've 3-bet light without looking at the BB, and ended up 3 ways with a bad hand

no, it's not an easy spot. you won't get to bet the flop and take it down very often. but you can make your way to a showdown and push your hand when it's best

Re: Defending from SB with K8o against LAG
 

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most of the bets go in postflop. don't tell me about preflop edge.

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If you're three-betting, you're going to have 7SBs in the pot going into the flop (1SB of which is dead money from the BB).

In the majority of cases, the flop is going to miss you, so if you want to take the "outplay the opponent from OOP without a pair or an ace" approach, the post-flop action is either going to be bet-raise-three bet-fold (6SBs), or possibly, check-bet-check raise-call-lead turn-fold (6SBs).

In either of these "outplay" situations, the amount of money going in postflop, is roughly equal to the amount going in preflop.

By contrast, obviously when you hit a pair against a light steal raiser, there is a much greater likelihood that you take the hand to showdown. (I certainly dont think you can go past 4th street without a pair against this sort of opponent.) However because a pair may well commit you to a showdown, this is precisely why preflop edge matter--paying off on a weak bottom pair or, even worse, pushing a dominated top pair is an EV disaster.

I dont think you can ignore preflop equity for this reason.

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you can outplay this guy postflop

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This statement puzzles me. When you hit the flop, yes, I can see where "outplaying" the bad guy comes in (i.e., you'll either recognize when you're ahead and value bet him all the way, or in more ambiguous situations, you'll check-call him and let him bluff off his money).

But when you miss the flop (the majority of the time), the only way to "outplay" an aggressive opponent is to either outspew him, or to be uber-passive with a hand that somehow is good at showdown (e.g., small pair, ace high, etc.) The passive approach doesnt make sense to me since K8o UI isn't a showdown-able hand; the out-spewing approach, is speculative and high variance at best.

So like I said originally, I think that trying to "outplay" this guy means that on the majority of flops, you're going to need to spew. Maybe this is marginally +EV; it is undeniably high variance. I pass on these "edges".