Palestinians
 

The Palestinians are [censored] on by all the countries surrounding Israel, especially Lebanon. Surely it's hypocritical to criticise Israel for treating the Palestinians as second rate citizens when all the Arab countries do also? Maybe it's because those of a left leaning political persuasion prefer Arabs to Jews that such a view is preverlent.

I am drunk, so my English may be poor, but my assertation stands.

Re: Palestinians
 

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Surely it's hypocritical to criticise Israel for treating the Palestinians as second rate citizens when all the Arab countries do also?

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Yes, it surely would be hypocritical... if those who criticised Israel were responsible for mistreatings of Palestinians in say Lebanon. But most of us aren't. What happens in Israel gets a lot of attention in the West, while few care about crimes in other eastern countries. That is why misdeeds in Israel are reported and debated all the time and misdeeds in say Saudi Arabia are not. That does not make criticism of ISrael any less correct.

Re: Palestinians
 

i've always found this argument slightly ridiculous. Israel created the refugee situation. The countries surrounding Israel are hardly beacons of political stability. The most developed countries in the world struggle with refugee influxes, U.S. France etc... Syria and Lebanon can not be expected to welcome an influx of poor refugees with open arms. The Lebanese civil war, and the Israeli invasion of lebanon were directly influenced by the presence of the refugees. The PLO was based in lebanon, and was a major reason why israel invaded the country. In lebanon, refugees make up a sizable portion of the population, and are a drag on a struggling economy. The lebanese national debt is the second highest in the world compared to its gdp. In jordan, palestinians attempted coups to overthrow the government. Israel caused the situation, they should bear far more responcibility in rectifying it then the struggling arab states surrounding israel.

Re: Palestinians
 

Israel does allot of [censored] up [censored].

Re: Palestinians
 

I don't have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinians. Had the Arabs left Isreal alone, they would still control Gaza and the West Bank, perhaps even more territory. Thier continual efforts to eradicate Israel in the 50s and 60s and 70s resulted in a forfieture of thier rights, just as Japan's aggression in WWII made them forfiet thier moral highground when they were bombed. As soon as you attack someone, the person you've attacked has the right to obliterate you if they choose.

We rebuilt Japan out of our own kindness. If Israel chooses to give back land like Gaza it will be thier decision, they have no obligation just as we had no obligation. Doing so would certainly be more mercy then the Arabs would have showed the Jews had they won in any of the wars during that time.

Re: Palestinians
 

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We rebuilt Japan out of our own self-interest.

[/ QUOTE ]FYP

And your premise that the Arabs were the aggressors is seriously flawed. This started with Arabs being forced out of their homes.

Re: Palestinians
 

Isn't that like saying the U.S. is bad because we kicked out the American Indians? It was bad at the time, but kind of a moot point now.

Re: Palestinians
 

Good post. In all truthfullness, though, Israel should have either given back the land or made it apart of Israel within 10 years of the take over. I think most will admit that this is one of their largest mistakes. I agree that Israel shouldn't have been obligated to give anything, but i just think not doing something with land was poor strategic planning. Many of the anti-israel posters here don't seem to realize that in the middle east your reputation among your peers is very important. The situations that Israel was forced into left them with little choice other than to play back at the bully and take control of the table. You can't play girly when they dirty. Sure, the girly way sometimes looks good on paper, but those with a practical political philosophy know better.

Re: Palestinians
 

My understanding was that the Jews purchased most of the land that was part of Isreal proper according the the 1940s partition during the Zionist movement in the early 20th century. As such, it was really thier land since they bought it. Most of the land given to Isreal in the partition was basically the shitty desert land no one wanted. Had the Arabs left it at that they may even have been able to confiscate the significant Jewish holdings on thier side of the partition.

The Palestians got kicked out of thier homes as a result of Jews gaining land during Arab invasions.

Re: Palestinians
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We rebuilt Japan out of our own self-interest.

[/ QUOTE ]FYP

And your premise that the Arabs were the aggressors is seriously flawed. This started with Arabs being forced out of their homes.

[/ QUOTE ]

wait, wait. hold the [censored] on for just a minute. I agree with Grey?

Ok, my head just exploded.

fim

Re: Palestinians
 

I actually advocate Isreal withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza on the political grounds that it is foolish for Isreal to try and hold on to them.

However, I don't think they have any moral obligation nor do I intend to judge them as others would do.

Re: Palestinians
 

Haha, you better take a deep breath and just sit down, these kind of things don't happen often, for anyone.

Re: Palestinians
 

My understanding was that the Jews purchased most of the land that was part of Isreal proper according the the 1940s partition during the Zionist movement in the early 20th century. As such, it was really thier land since they bought it."

About 7% of Mandate Palestine land was Jewish-owned at the time of partition. Regardless, it's a ridiculous criterion to use for establishing a state. All of the Congo was owned by King Leoplold of Belgium, did that meant he had the right to expel the entire population? Almost all Irish land was English-owned in the 19th century; did they have the right to sell it to the highest bidder and let whoever that might be do what they want with the country?

Gaining

Re: Palestinians
 

If we assume that whoever is living there has the right to establish a state then I don't see why the Israeli side of the partition (which was mostly Jewish to my knowledge though I could be wrong) should have been organized into a Jewish state, since it was mostly Jewish.

Had the surrounding Arab states not invaded then perhaps the Palestinians living there could have been incorporated into that state peacefully, espcially considering the Jews accepted the UN partition.. However, the invasions made this all impossible.

Re: Palestinians
 

I don't really see what that has to do with my post, which was about the absurdity of using land-ownership to decide who has the right to found a country somewhere. However, in response to what you wrote, I seem to remember that about half the population of what would have been the "Jewish" state under partition was Jewish, and half was Palestinian. (This would have changed of course as it was designated for Jews to emigrate to). However most of those were very recent emigrants that the longstanding population of the place would not have allowed in had they not been under the thumb of an imperialist power. Furthermore, the partition borders of the state were drawn specifically to manufacture a state with the largest possible Jewish population. Any borders drawn along previous administrative or natural boundaires would have given rise to a massive Arab majority. You could draw maps in areas of England and find that areas with Pakistani majorities exist, it doesn't mean a Pakistani state should be established there.

Re: Palestinians
 

Also you keep stating that "Arab invasions" were to blame for the Palestinians losing their homes. I don't agree with your take on hisotry but even if unjustified "Arab aggression" preceded the expulsions, would that justify them? Since when has states embarking on wars justified the mass ethnic cleansing of their citizens (or in the Palestinian case, their ethnic brothers or whatever?) WOuld it have been legitimate for all Iraqis to be shipped off to refugee camps and Iraq turned over to some other group following Saddam's invasion of Kuwait? Noone seriosuly defends Israel's invasion of Egypt in 1956 any more (one usually left of the list of the regional wars we're told all resulted from "Arab aggression"); did it give Egypt the right to throw Israelis out of their homes?

Re: Palestinians
 

While I wouldn't, if I was a resident of Kuwait, support throwing Iraqis in refugee camps I won't as an outsider choose to judge them if they did so. They are the parties involved, and it's up to them how they conduct themselves. The decisions they make are ones they have to live with.

If a country engages in an unprovoked attack on another (say Iraq vs Kuwait) then I see moral justification for disaproving of anothers action (Iraq). However, if someone attacks another and they attempt to get revenge, I can't really judge them for doing so. That is not to say I would neccessarily do the same in thier shoes, but I think as a third party I don't have to right to tell someone they can't have thier revenge.

Re: Palestinians
 

Well, I guess that is where we fundamentally disagree.

Re: Palestinians
 

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While I wouldn't, if I was a resident of Kuwait, support throwing Iraqis in refugee camps I won't as an outsider choose to judge them if they did so. They are the parties involved, and it's up to them how they conduct themselves. The decisions they make are ones they have to live with.

If a country engages in an unprovoked attack on another (say Iraq vs Kuwait) then I see moral justification for disaproving of anothers action (Iraq). However, if someone attacks another and they attempt to get revenge, I can't really judge them for doing so. That is not to say I would neccessarily do the same in thier shoes, but I think as a third party I don't have to right to tell someone they can't have thier revenge.

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As US citizens we are more than 3rd parties. In the past 30+ our government has given more money to Israel than any other country, and most of that money has gone to their military.

Re: Palestinians
 

Threads like this are what make me thankful to have Israel and even more thankful that it has taken the general policy direction it has.

In Israel, we don't have to worry about how other people perceive us, we don't have to behave meekly so some people get angry and elect a government that decides they want us dead again.

Here, we are free. Don't bother us, we won't bother you.

Hypocritical? You be the judge
 

Check out the following link to a website written by palestinians. They of course have little nice to say about Israel, but it also gives some insight on how their Arab "brothers" treat them.

web page

Some highlights:

Palestinians living in Lebanon, Egypt, and more recently in Iraq are subject to the same employment laws applicable to foreigners, with no consideration given to birth in the country or length of stay.

With few exceptions, Palestinians in the Arab host countries are treated as foreigners and do not have access by right to government services such as education, health and social benefits.

At present, RD holders or Palestinians carrying "temporary" Jordanian passports are frequently denied entry visas to almost all Arab states. A lengthy and agonizing procedure is necessary for RD holders to enter Syria, Lebanon, and to a lesser extent Jordan.

Re: Palestinians
 

[ QUOTE ]
Threads like this are what make me thankful to have Israel and even more thankful that it has taken the general policy direction it has.

In Israel, we don't have to worry about how other people perceive us, we don't have to behave meekly so some people get angry and elect a government that decides they want us dead again.

Here, we are free. Don't bother us, we won't bother you.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Israel hadn't been cashing billion dollar checks from Uncle Sam you could say that. Israel is a shill for America and vice versa.

Re: Palestinians
 

1/3 of this planet is cashing checks from Uncle Sam.

Nationality and business are not the same.

Re: Palestinians
 

A major part of Ireal's stance in regards to Palestine issue (or any Arab conflict for that matter) is to understand why they have taken on the role of regional bully. The Zionist movement post WWII and the subsequent establishment of Isreal as a nation as a direct result of an entire population of Jews who were horribly tortured, starved, denined basic human dignities, stripped of their property, and killed during the Holocoust. These people and the Isreali government have been instilled with a strong sense of survival towards the interactions with any non-Jewish peoples/nations. Carried to the next level, the bullied has become the bully. Isreal feels strongly about their very existance in the area and will fight to the bitter end to maintain that which they have struggled so long and suffured so much to obtain.

Does this justify racial discrimination of the non-Jewish in the Isreali occupied areas - no. Does any of the suffering experienced during the Holocoust justify the outright treatment of Arab-Isrealis as second class citizens - no. It seems to me that Isreal should be the most simpathetic to the causes of any oppressed peoples in the world especially those closest in proximity to them, but they are not. The repeated actions of Isreal has produced absolutely no tangible forms of peace in the region, instead I equate their oft repeated acts of violence and injustices as basically throwing gasoline on the fire. There may always be some tensions between Isreal and their Arab neighbors due to basic idealogical and religious differences but IMO peace is possible but Isreal, being the aggressor has to make the effort beyond reliquishing of spots of occupied land.

Re: Palestinians
 

We also pay off the Egyptions, and the Saudis, and a lot of others. We also objected to the invasion of Egypt in 1956 if I remember correctly.

Not that I think this is a particulurly good policy, we should cut aid to those countries. However, when most people criticize Israel is goes far beyond foriegn aid, they are making moral judgements.

Re: Palestinians
 

[ QUOTE ]
We also pay off the Egyptions, and the Saudis, and a lot of others. We also objected to the invasion of Egypt in 1956 if I remember correctly.

Not that I think this is a particulurly good policy, we should cut aid to those countries. However, when most people criticize Israel is goes far beyond foriegn aid, they are making moral judgements.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm against aid to all of the countries that you just mentioned. I only brought up the aid to Israel in response to someone who suggested that it is not our position to judge Israel. Even if we never gave money to Israel, I would still be against many of their policies, but the fact that we have given them so much money splashes some blood on our hands.

Re: Palestinians
 

I agree that Isreal should withdraw, such would be a prudent policy. They can't hold onto the lands, and it isn't helping them strategically. Now that they have nuclear weapons they don't need those lands as a military buffer anymore.

However, just because I think it is prudent political policy doesn't mean I judge them morally as a third party. If the Arabs had won any of the wars (or if they could today) there wouldn't be any Jews in Israel because they would have slaughtered them all men, women, and children. While I personally wouldn't do the same is Isreal's shoes, I won't sit here and judge thier merely doing what others would have done to them.

Re: Palestinians
 

[ QUOTE ]
Threads like this are what make me thankful to have Israel and even more thankful that it has taken the general policy direction it has.

In Israel, we don't have to worry about how other people perceive us, we don't have to behave meekly so some people get angry and elect a government that decides they want us dead again.

Here, we are free. Don't bother us, we won't bother you.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's easy to be smug when the shoe's on the other foot. Isreal's defiance of peace in the face of constant violent reprisals towards non-Jews under their stewardship is being met with less and less support from the rest of the world. Given the fact that they (Isreal) depend so heavily upon aid from the US there will come a time when Isreal's attitude will have to change.

Re: Hypocritical? You be the judge
 

it's not hippocritical. the arab states surrounding israel are in a state of relative dissaray. Lebanon has the 2nd highest national debt/GNP in the world, Syria's a mess, Egypts on the brink of utter chaos, the list goes on. The U.S. and France struggle with immigrants, and they are at the top of the food chain. just because the palestinians and the surrounding arabs both have brown skin does not mean that the struggling arab states should bear the respncibility of a mass of poor refugees. Leighi guy, you're way off as well. Why are the palestinians responcible for the wars precipitated by other arab states? palestinians were forced off their land as early as 1949, not only after subsequent wars. Fishhooks makes a rare good point that the past is the pas, atrocity or not, there's no going back.. this does not justify the treatment of the palestinians however. they are subject to curfews, ridiculous checkpoints which makes it impossible to go from one west bank town to another in a reasonable amount of time. traversing barb wire fences to go to school etc. i wonder why they're so hopeless and resort to suicide bombing? not saying it's right, just saying the facts.

Re: Hypocritical? You be the judge
 

I'm not necessarily saying I would do the same in Israels shoes, but as a third party I don't think you have a right to judge the Isreali's given the history.

For instance, I don't think people in France have the right to judge our using of the atomic bomb on Japan. Maybe they can have an opinion about it, but to presume to judge is arrogance.

Re: Palestinians
 

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Here, we are free. Don't bother us, we won't bother you.

[/ QUOTE ]

So stop taking our tax dollars then and be self-sufficient.

Re: Palestinians
 

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[ QUOTE ]


Here, we are free. Don't bother us, we won't bother you.

[/ QUOTE ]

So stop taking our tax dollars then and be self-sufficient.

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I wish. The day we stop being schnorrs will the greatest day in Israeli history.

Give me 2 million Jews, and I'll give you a thriving nation, in which Arabs and Jews live side by side, without racism and prejudice, in which everyone has equal rights under one government, free under god.

Re: Palestinians
 

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't that like saying the U.S. is bad because we kicked out the American Indians? It was bad at the time, but kind of a moot point now.

[/ QUOTE ]I never said acting in our self-interest is bad at all. When our self-interst coincides with the self-interest of others (which is very commonly the case) I think it's great. I can't wait to get a Democratic President in office who can use the resources Junior has in destabilizing Iraq to instead fight global poverty which is where terrorism really breeds.

Re: Palestinians
 

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1/3 of this planet is cashing checks from Uncle Sam.

[/ QUOTE ]And yet 1/3rd of what we give goes to your tiny, well-fed country. Not really much of a comparison here.

Re: Palestinians
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1/3 of this planet is cashing checks from Uncle Sam.

[/ QUOTE ]And yet 1/3rd of what we give goes to your tiny, well-fed country. Not really much of a comparison here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying that 1/3 of the foreign aid the US gives goes to Israel?

Re: Palestinians
 

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I can't wait to get a Democratic President in office who can use the resources Junior has in destabilizing Iraq to instead fight global poverty which is where terrorism really breeds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really.

Terrorism has little or nothing to do with economics

Terrorism not caused by poverty

Terrorists aren't desperate

Re: Palestinians
 

Not on an individual level no, but on a societal level yes. Al Quaeda & co. got their tactics from the Tamil Tigers, and all the two groups have in common is poor environments.

That's not to say economic conditions and terrorism always correlate exactly. For example in the study you linked which showed a rise in terrorism as economic conditions improved in Palestine it is more likely just a factor of Palestinians gaining new access and abilities. Extreme poverty obviously doesn't allow much time to worry about anything other than finding food. The situation is also unique in that the Palestinian government can't really get powerful enough to control its citizens because they are being occupied and consistently getting their [censored] bombed.

Stable, strong, and representative political structures are also essential. There is no one cause, but I believe these two are the most highly correlated.

Thanks for the links.

Re: Palestinians
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying that 1/3 of the foreign aid the US gives goes to Israel?

[/ QUOTE ]Correct. About 3 Bil a year if I remember correctly.