I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

I was just at a loss in this hand. I don't mean for this to be a "I have an unbeatable hand, what do I do?" type of post, I'm really curious as to what your plan would be here. I think that one of my biggest problems in my game lately has been not being able to build pots.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (4 handed) converter

Button ($42.15)
SB ($15.10)
Hero ($260.60)
UTG ($33.45)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $1, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($3) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $1</font>, SB folds, Hero calls $1.

Turn: ($5) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: ($5) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $20</font>, Button calls $15.

Final Pot: $45

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

If i'm in position with this hand i'll raise his bet on the flop hoping that he's got a top pair or a made flush and doesn't think I have one yet.

If i'm out of position like you are, i'll make a pot sized bet on the flop because they'll call that with a draw. Then i'll halfpot the turn, giving them just sweet enough odds to keep on drawing. Then on that river, i'd push all in hoping it looks like a desperate bluff that didn't get there and might look crazy enough to get a call from top pair, and for sure from a smaller flush. If they don't have a hand, you can't get paid which is the unfortunate part here, but you can't always flop the straight flush over ace high flush.

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

i like the check/call on the flop.

on the turn i'd lead for something small. and i'd want it to smell like weakness, not a please-please-call bet. maybe $2?

i think you've got to lead the river, at least something. you could donkbet $1, or bet $3 hoping they come over the top. if you check and they check behind, boy that sucks. if they fold to your small bet, they won't see your hand and so they won't know you were slowplaying a monster.

results? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

[ QUOTE ]
If i'm in position with this hand i'll raise his bet on the flop hoping that he's got a top pair or a made flush and doesn't think I have one yet.

If i'm out of position like you are, i'll make a pot sized bet on the flop because they'll call that with a draw. Then i'll halfpot the turn, giving them just sweet enough odds to keep on drawing. Then on that river, i'd push all in hoping it looks like a desperate bluff that didn't get there and might look crazy enough to get a call from top pair, and for sure from a smaller flush. If they don't have a hand, you can't get paid which is the unfortunate part here, but you can't always flop the straight flush over ace high flush.

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I like your line, but without a read, I'm just value betting the river.

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

[ QUOTE ]
If i'm in position with this hand i'll raise his bet on the flop hoping that he's got a top pair or a made flush and doesn't think I have one yet.

If i'm out of position like you are, i'll make a pot sized bet on the flop because they'll call that with a draw. Then i'll halfpot the turn, giving them just sweet enough odds to keep on drawing. Then on that river, i'd push all in hoping it looks like a desperate bluff that didn't get there and might look crazy enough to get a call from top pair, and for sure from a smaller flush. If they don't have a hand, you can't get paid which is the unfortunate part here, but you can't always flop the straight flush over ace high flush.

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I like this line as an alternative to PoBoy's, but there's no guarantee he comes along.

But poBoy: Get a grip, dude: you flopped the stone cold absolute f'ing nuts and got the guy to come along for half his stack.

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

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But poBoy: Get a grip, dude: you flopped the stone cold absolute f'ing nuts and got the guy to come along for half his stack.

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I should've gotten his whole stack.

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

How are you going to get his whole stack when you have just about every card in the deck?

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

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[ QUOTE ]
But poBoy: Get a grip, dude: you flopped the stone cold absolute f'ing nuts and got the guy to come along for half his stack.

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I should've gotten his whole stack.

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That depends on what he was holding. The way I see it, there are two approaches to these things:

1) you start betting right away, leading out on every street in hopes that he has some kind of hand. This will make bigger pots, but it will lose them sometimes

2) you slowplay and hope he catches something on a later street. This will usually make smaller pots, but will keep them in the hand longer

In this hand, I like 1) because the board is so draw-heavy. A fourth diamond could kill your action altogether.

Thoughts?

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

i like the line lead flop, check/call turn, lead river

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
But poBoy: Get a grip, dude: you flopped the stone cold absolute f'ing nuts and got the guy to come along for half his stack.

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I should've gotten his whole stack.

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That depends on what he was holding. The way I see it, there are two approaches to these things:

1) you start betting right away, leading out on every street in hopes that he has some kind of hand. This will make bigger pots, but it will lose them sometimes

2) you slowplay and hope he catches something on a later street. This will usually make smaller pots, but will keep them in the hand longer

In this hand, I like 1) because the board is so draw-heavy. A fourth diamond could kill your action altogether.

Thoughts?

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I swear my only thinking is not having any sympathy for not being satisfied with half his stack here!

In all seriousness, it looks from the play like villain (we should call this guy "victim") had a T and made his straight on the river, so I am not sure there was more to extract. But who knows? (I guess PoBoy does, since he got the guy to showdown). If he had a flush, then, yeah, maybe we coulda stacked him, and if he had an A-hi flush then maybe he shoulda been stacked, but the fact that he wasn't tells me he didn't have the A-hi flush, so I think this was a good hand.

I agree with you in general, Bear, those are the two ways of proceeding. In this situation, I would have opted to slow play and hope the guy made something along the way.

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

In order to win a big pot, you have to build a big pot. That means betting. You have to bet that flop, even if small. Bet the flop, then the turn, then the river. That's how you build a pot. Somebody with the nut flush draw will probably call, and you'll often get two pair too. Sure plenty of times everyone will fold, but the times that you win a massive pot will make it worth it. You have to give them a chance to put some money in that pot. Checking the flop and check calling the turn is not accomplishing building the pot. And when you do do that, you then have to over bet the river in order to get some real money in the pot. Bet the flop, bet the turn, and then bet the river.

Edit: I also would add that flopping a straight flush is no different than flopping a set on an harmless board. Your winning percentage is still huge and you need to think about maximum value. Flopping the absolute nuts means nothing. If everyone folds the flop so be it, but you have to get value out of this hand when someone actually has somethng. Furthermore, betting out gives no one any clue as to how strong you are. They might actually play back at you representing the nuts. Play the straight flush the same way you would a set on a draw free board. Bet!

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

I like check-calling all the way down to the river, prey another [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] hits and someone has A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

I lead the river though.

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

i lead flop

what are you afraid of folding out? i wouldn't worry about trying to bluff catch here

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

[ QUOTE ]
In order to win a big pot, you have to build a big pot. That means betting. You have to bet that flop, even if small. Bet the flop, then the turn, then the river. That's how you build a pot. Somebody with the nut flush draw will probably call, and you'll often get two pair too. Sure plenty of times everyone will fold, but the times that you win a massive pot will make it worth it. You have to give them a chance to put some money in that pot. Checking the flop and check calling the turn is not accomplishing building the pot. And when you do do that, you then have to over bet the river in order to get some real money in the pot. Bet the flop, bet the turn, and then bet the river.

Edit: I also would add that flopping a straight flush is no different than flopping a set on an harmless board. Your winning percentage is still huge and you need to think about maximum value. Flopping the absolute nuts means nothing. If everyone folds the flop so be it, but you have to get value out of this hand when someone actually has somethng. Furthermore, betting out gives no one any clue as to how strong you are. They might actually play back at you representing the nuts. Play the straight flush the same way you would a set on a draw free board. Bet!

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Sorry, I just disagree with this. There is absolutely a time for slowing down and letting the other guy make his hand, and when ever single card on the flop helped you, the probability that the other guy hit has to go way down, and this just argues for slowing down and hoping he catches up. If the flop hit him hard, too, he'll lead, and if it didn't, betting is likely to drive him out.

Betting as a general rule is, of course, correct. But there are times to slow down and, at the very least, there is a strong argument that this is one of them.

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

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betting is likely to drive him out.

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maybe AJ or KJ, although i still think you'll get a call on the flop.

but he will stay with 2-pair or better, A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], maybe K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], maybe straight draw

there's nothing better than charging some one to draw dead against you, and then stack him when he 'hits'

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

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i lead flop

what are you afraid of folding out?

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Pretty much 70 of the 80 legit starting hands. This was an unraised pot; villain/victim could have just about anything. Suppose he limped with ATo? Suppose he has hearts? suppose he has a pair of fours?

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

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[ QUOTE ]
i lead flop

what are you afraid of folding out?

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Pretty much 70 of the 80 legit starting hands. This was an unraised pot; villain/victim could have just about anything. Suppose he limped with ATo? Suppose he has hearts? suppose he has a pair of fours?

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Lead for half the pot on every street. This will get most hands to come along and build the pot at the same time.

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

ATo might call, but my question now is, if you check to him you think there's any chance he'll bet those?

you might catch a bluff here and there, but i doubt anyone would fire two barrels, so i focus on maximizing my win when he's got something

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

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ATo might call, but my question now is, if you check to him you think there's any chance he'll bet those?

you might catch a bluff here and there, but i doubt anyone would fire two barrels, so i focus on maximizing my win when he's got something

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ATo might call, absolutely, and might even bluff once or twice. My point is only that this was an unraised pot and a flop that scares the bejeesus out of most starting hands. Those that won't be terribly scared will lead, as likely as not, and the overwhelming majority of starting hands will insta-fold to any serious bet at all.

The more we talk about it, the more sure I am that slowing down here was the right way to play. (I hope you're still with us, PoBoy).

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

I'm still here, I'm just kind of sitting back watching everyone's discussion.

My thinking was kind of that in a 4-handed game, the likely hood of me running into a good 2nd best hand was slim and my best shot was to let the villain bluff at it.

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

I like 2/3 pot, 1/2 pot, followed by a pot sized river bet.

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

well, you know I think you were dead on right with this particular flop.

I think also, that as a general discussion on how to play when you flop an unbeatable hand, this has turned out to be a very good discussion of the factors to consider. Lots of these posters have made really good points.

Anyway, it's a nice problem to have, trying to figure out how much of a guy's stack you're gonna get.

I'm really looking forward to seeing the rsults post on this one, so don't let me down!

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

I think you have to think of building a pot like investing in the stock market or your 401k. Having read the "How old are you post" I realize this is entirely irrelevant to most of you, but you have to think of this as compound interest. Every street you bet is compound interest. If you bet the flop, you can bet even more on the turn, and then more on the river. Fine, bet small; bet half the pot each time. If They have nothing, they have nothing. By checking, checking, and then betting huge, you're giving away your hand anyway. But let the power of compounding work for you. Bet!

Edit: mpethybridge, I realize also from the "How old are you" post, that you're nearly dead, so surely you must understand the cocept of compound return! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: I suck at building pots, making money and poker in general
 

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I think you have to think of building a pot like investing in the stock market or your 401k. Having read the "How old are you post" I realize this is entirely irrelevant to most of you, but you have to think of this as compound interest. Every street you bet is compound interest. If you bet the flop, you can bet even more on the turn, and then more on the river. Fine, bet small; bet half the pot each time. If They have nothing, they have nothing. By checking, checking, and then betting huge, you're giving away your hand anyway. But let the power of compounding work for you. Bet!

Edit: mpethybridge, I realize also from the "How old are you" post, that you're nearly dead, so surely you must understand the cocept of compound return! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

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"Mostly dead is partly alive."
I understand compounding; I also know how to figure the compound interest on zero, which is what it would be when he leans on that guy in that hand too much.