Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

Been at the table for about 12 hands. There was one hand very similar where UTG in this hand limped, several followed behind, someone pushed, everyone folded.

420 entrants, 100 left. Party $109

Blinds: 100/200

Here (2170) is in the BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

UTG (3521) limps
2 folds
MP (6255) limps
3 folds
Button (3645) limps
SB (5637) limps

Pot is 1000 and hero has 1970 behind.

Check and see a flop or punish the limpers and push? What about making a normal raise to around 1000?

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

I like making it 1000. Enough though you might get one caller a push on the flop might scare em off. And while this may seemingly pot commit you, at least on a totally horendous flop you can abort.

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

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I like making it 1000. Enough though you might get one caller a push on the flop might scare em off. And while this may seemingly pot commit you, at least on a totally horendous flop you can abort.

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I think harrington advocates something like this. I think it's pretty terrible.

Edit: I think I rather push than check here. Calling and losing will put a serious dent in anyone's stack, and your cards are probably live when you get called. Risking about 2000 to win 1000 with folding equity pretty high. I don't feel like doing the math, but this is surely +EV to push.

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

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I like making it 1000. Enough though you might get one caller a push on the flop might scare em off. And while this may seemingly pot commit you, at least on a totally horendous flop you can abort.

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I thought about that line as well, at least in terms of raising it up to 1000. But only to represent a big hand. Problem is that with 1000 already in the pot I'm likely to get a caller from one of the larger stacks.

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

I think normally I check and see a flop here...

However, I think your table image is a big consideration here. Being new to the table is definitely an advantage. I'm assuming you haven't really done anything yet. I think you get looked up by 66-TT fairly often here though...

Raise to 1000 is the worst of the 3 options IMO.

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

Thinking about this a little more, any horrendous flop for you would probably fit a hand you are trying to represent. Having done this move in the past I have to say I get looked up by pairs 66-1010 50% of the time.

One other thing to think about is how effective this might be if your chip stack was bigger. I often see this move in a tournament when the big stack is in ur position and finding everyone folding because he has them covered. This might be a spot where checking and hoping to hit something is your best option until you get some more chips.

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

I would generally check here. There is too much chance you are dominated by a pp. Either someone could be trapping with AA or KK or someone who limped with 55-TT could decide to call.

There is enough money in the pot to give some pot odds to a call. Plus a push from the BB is suspicious. Since you are new to the table, you don't know if you have the right conditions in that people will fold to a push or big raise.

75s isn't a bad hand to see a flop with in a limped pot.

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

You are down to 10BB's and there is enough dead $$$ in the pot to make a difference to your tourney, I push.

I hate your hand as if called you may be dominated, but this is too good a situation to pass up.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

I've been thinking about the conventional wisdom that you should be punishing limpers with hands like this. On PP, I see limp-calls MUCH more often with middle pairs than I do with AJ. In fact I dont know that I have ever been called in this spot with an ace, only PPs ranging from KK-22. (100$ MTT someone limped behind 3 limpers with KK, I pushed AJ from the SB and sucked out).

If you will only get called by middle pairs, your hand is pretty much only worth it's folding equity. Although a big stack may look you up with AT in a spot like this.

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

With hands like this, I much prefer seeing the flop.You dont get much chance in the later stages to take a good *potential* hand in a multi-way pot, so I like to excercise that option if I get the chance.

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

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If you will only get called by middle pairs, your hand is pretty much only worth it's folding equity. Although a big stack may look you up with AT in a spot like this.

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I agree.

I don't mind overcards calling as I'm only a 60-40 dog as long as they are not hearts.

If I get called by overcards I am betting 1970 to win 2970 which is 1.5-1, which is 60/40.

So if you throw in some fold equity and its good.

The bad part of this is getting called by 66-99, then it hurts.

With 10BB's I'm likely to push.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

You also dont get many chances to win a pot that is 50% of your stack when everyone has acted and no one has shown strength.

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

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I think normally I check and see a flop here...

However, I think your table image is a big consideration here. Being new to the table is definitely an advantage. I'm assuming you haven't really done anything yet. I think you get looked up by 66-TT fairly often here though...

Raise to 1000 is the worst of the 3 options IMO.

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Agreed on all points. Too often you'll be called with hands that have you in rough shape. Just check and see the flop. Maybe you'll get lucky and flop 2-pair, trips, a straight or an OESD, a flush or a flush draw, or some combination of pair & draw. With a big pot building, you might then be in a situation to push or call all-in with a big hand or a big draw and win an even bigger pot.

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

Don't raise to 1000 as you will definitely be called by someone. I like the push but never have the balls to do it. Push the 75s and show it when you do, it'll set up getting paid off in the future when you do the same thing with a premium hand later.

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

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I think normally I check and see a flop here...

However, I think your table image is a big consideration here. Being new to the table is definitely an advantage. I'm assuming you haven't really done anything yet. I think you get looked up by 66-TT fairly often here though...

Raise to 1000 is the worst of the 3 options IMO.

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Agreed on all points. Too often you'll be called with hands that have you in rough shape. Just check and see the flop. Maybe you'll get lucky and flop 2-pair, trips, a straight or an OESD, a flush or a flush draw, or some combination of pair & draw. With a big pot building, you might then be in a situation to push or call all-in with a big hand or a big draw and win an even bigger pot.

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If you flopped an OESD or flush draw and got it all in against top pair, you'd be in the same shape if not worse than if you got it all in against 2 overcards right now. Are my EV calculations correct that you would need to take it down 1 out of 6 or 7 times to make this a +EV situation? If someone showed you 2 overcards and said they would call, you could almost justify a push here just because of all the money in the pot. I think you take it down at least 40-50% of the time here, which makes this way +EV. The fact that with 2000 chips you can't really steal blinds but with 3000 chips you can easily do it makes this situation even more +EV because of future gains from taking this pot down. If you are going to put your skill to good use you need the chips to do it, this is a great opportunity to get them.

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

If you play this you have to push all in to put max pressure on your opponents to fold mariginal hands.

If you are called, you have eliminated your positional disadvantage by pushing preflop.

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

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If you will only get called by middle pairs, your hand is pretty much only worth it's folding equity. Although a big stack may look you up with AT in a spot like this.

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I agree.

I don't mind overcards calling as I'm only a 60-40 dog as long as they are not hearts.

If I get called by overcards I am betting 1970 to win 2970 which is 1.5-1, which is 60/40.

So if you throw in some fold equity and its good.

The bad part of this is getting called by 66-99, then it hurts.

With 10BB's I'm likely to push.

Regards,
Woodguy

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This is the best advice on this hand. You get called and you will be a dog, but you have enough equity to outweigh the chance of being dominated to make this a push. Good analysis Woodguy.

Brad

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

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Don't raise to 1000 as you will definitely be called by someone. I like the push but never have the balls to do it. Push the 75s and show it when you do, it'll set up getting paid off in the future when you do the same thing with a premium hand later.

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At this stage, I think maintaining max F.E. equity is much more important than getting paid on good hands. Early on I like to get a loose idiot image (usually by doing things like pushing into a smallish pot, when I know a small bet will win), So I can double if I get AA-KK, but at this stage, winning pots uncontested is a higher priority

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

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I think normally I check and see a flop here...

However, I think your table image is a big consideration here. Being new to the table is definitely an advantage. I'm assuming you haven't really done anything yet. I think you get looked up by 66-TT fairly often here though...

Raise to 1000 is the worst of the 3 options IMO.

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Agreed on all points. Too often you'll be called with hands that have you in rough shape. Just check and see the flop. Maybe you'll get lucky and flop 2-pair, trips, a straight or an OESD, a flush or a flush draw, or some combination of pair & draw. With a big pot building, you might then be in a situation to push or call all-in with a big hand or a big draw and win an even bigger pot.

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If you flopped an OESD or flush draw and got it all in against top pair, you'd be in the same shape if not worse than if you got it all in against 2 overcards right now. Are my EV calculations correct that you would need to take it down 1 out of 6 or 7 times to make this a +EV situation? If someone showed you 2 overcards and said they would call, you could almost justify a push here just because of all the money in the pot. I think you take it down at least 40-50% of the time here, which makes this way +EV. The fact that with 2000 chips you can't really steal blinds but with 3000 chips you can easily do it makes this situation even more +EV because of future gains from taking this pot down. If you are going to put your skill to good use you need the chips to do it, this is a great opportunity to get them.

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Notice I said "you might then be in a situation" -
For example let's say you just check and the flop comes 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] - giving you middle pair with a flush draw and some runner-runner straight possibilities. Let's say that the first limper has AA and wanted to Limp Re-Raise but never had the opportunity - so now he pushes. Another limper has AQ and figures that his hand may be good - so he calls all-in. It gets back around to you - with your 14 outs getting well over 2:1 on your call - now that's what I'm talking about!!!

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

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I think normally I check and see a flop here...

However, I think your table image is a big consideration here. Being new to the table is definitely an advantage. I'm assuming you haven't really done anything yet. I think you get looked up by 66-TT fairly often here though...

Raise to 1000 is the worst of the 3 options IMO.

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Agreed on all points. Too often you'll be called with hands that have you in rough shape. Just check and see the flop. Maybe you'll get lucky and flop 2-pair, trips, a straight or an OESD, a flush or a flush draw, or some combination of pair & draw. With a big pot building, you might then be in a situation to push or call all-in with a big hand or a big draw and win an even bigger pot.

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If you flopped an OESD or flush draw and got it all in against top pair, you'd be in the same shape if not worse than if you got it all in against 2 overcards right now. Are my EV calculations correct that you would need to take it down 1 out of 6 or 7 times to make this a +EV situation? If someone showed you 2 overcards and said they would call, you could almost justify a push here just because of all the money in the pot. I think you take it down at least 40-50% of the time here, which makes this way +EV. The fact that with 2000 chips you can't really steal blinds but with 3000 chips you can easily do it makes this situation even more +EV because of future gains from taking this pot down. If you are going to put your skill to good use you need the chips to do it, this is a great opportunity to get them.

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Notice I said "you might then be in a situation" -
For example let's say you just check and the flop comes 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] - giving you middle pair with a flush draw and some runner-runner straight possibilities. Let's say that the first limper has AA and wanted to Limp Re-Raise but never had the opportunity - so now he pushes. Another limper has AQ and figures that his hand may be good - so he calls all-in. It gets back around to you - with your 14 outs getting well over 2:1 on your call - now that's what I'm talking about!!!

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And the chance of something even remotely similar to this happening???

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

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And the chance of something even remotely similar to this happening???

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3-1

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

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I think harrington advocates something like this. I think it's pretty terrible.



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He does...it is

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

Okay, so this scenario might be a little remote - but check folding doesn't cost you anything extra so why not see the flop and hope for a better +EV situation? I'd rather hope for a cheap, great flop than going all-in with 75s and hoping that none of 4 people who mostly have me covered call (and if you are at 10BBs - you can guess that some of the guys in this pot have 30BBs or more).

The real question is - do your cards matter here? If you think no - then go ahead and push, but if you think like I do that I want to see a flop with a speculative hand like a suited one-gapper then check and hope for a better opportunity later.

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this question as it really depends on your style and image and the style and image of your opponents. For example I'm not going to be as likely to push against an EP limper who I saw pull a limp-reraise 45 minutes ago, and I'm not going to be as likely to push into players who underplay TT/JJ pre-flop but will then call off their stack when raised. OTOH - if I thought that the table was weak-tight and my image was right then I'd push this with any 2.

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

I much prefer the push if your hand is 94o than 75s. You're mainly banking on fold equity, so your cards are of little importance. However, with something like 75s that has a good chance to flop a monster or a strong draw, you have a lot to gain by looking at a flop. Pushing kills some of the value of this hand.

I think Sklansky wrote an article explaining this a month or two back.

Kings

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

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I much prefer the push if your hand is 94o than 75s. You're mainly banking on fold equity, so your cards are of little importance. However, with something like 75s that has a good chance to flop a monster or a strong draw, you have a lot to gain by looking at a flop. Pushing kills some of the value of this hand.

I think Sklansky wrote an article explaining this a month or two back.

Kings

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I think your line of thinking is correct, but I am not sure about this situation.

Basically, when looking at the EV of a push, you have to compare it to the EV of a check. CHecking here definitely has some value. Pushing most likely has some value as well.
Plays like this are very image dependent, and it is unlikely that you can pull it off twice in a session. So, if we knew we were going to have this opportunity quite frequently, we would be correct to check, b/c the relative value of the push is less [EV(push)-EV(check)].

BUT......

This situation is really favorable for a push (stack sizes, pot size, etc). We are soon to enter the point of the tournament where pwning limpers is a thing of the past. You just dont see many limpers past the 100/50 level. So, I think you are best served to just pick the higher of two EVs (push-check). My gut tells me it is a push, just b/c most good draws we would flop give us a similar EV to the current push (and they dont flop that often)

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

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The fact that with 2000 chips you can't really steal blinds but with 3000 chips you can easily do it makes this situation even more +EV because of future gains from taking this pot down

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With the blinds being 100/200 and a stack of 2k one should be able to steal the blinds.

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

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Raise to 1000 is the worst of the 3 options IMO.

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Can you explain why?

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

I´d like to push here something like 1 out of 4 times

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

No offense, I hate responses like that.

This isnt the WPT, no one on party poker is paying enough attention to your previous MTTs to know if yuo make this play often. You are making your play 'perfect' to the point that it is less than optimal for the current situation.

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

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My gut tells me it is a push, just b/c most good draws we would flop give us a similar EV to the current push (and they dont flop that often)

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This is why it's a push. The odds of flopping a hand where you have as large an EV as this is awfully low. Basically to get this much EV you need to flop 2 pair, both a straight draw AND a flush draw, trips or maybe a pair and a flush draw. Odds of all those combined: Low.

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

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And the chance of something even remotely similar to this happening???

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3-1

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I have to disagree on the chance.
The odd is much smaller than 3-1.
Maybe 300 - 1

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

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My gut tells me it is a push, just b/c most good draws we would flop give us a similar EV to the current push (and they dont flop that often)

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This is why it's a push. The odds of flopping a hand where you have as large an EV as this is awfully low. Basically to get this much EV you need to flop 2 pair, both a straight draw AND a flush draw, trips or maybe a pair and a flush draw. Odds of all those combined: Low.

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agreed, I thought you did a great job of explaining this earlier.

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

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And the chance of something even remotely similar to this happening???

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3-1

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I have to disagree on the chance.
The odd is much smaller than 3-1.
Maybe 300 - 1

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At least 3-1, maybe better. 75h is lucky for me

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

I think that in the later stages of an online 100+9 tourney there are some players who make notes about players who do likely steals like this one. So if I see somebody making this push twice or 3 times in a row in equal situations I´m very likely to call him down with very weak hands. If he doesn´t do it too often, I´m very inclined to pass hands like AJ. Maybe I´m wrong, but I think that there are enough players (in the "higher" online buy in events) who make notes making a move 100% of the time simply wrong.

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

Hero checks because he can't justify a push.

Let's do some dirty math to see where we are at.
Hero bets 2K to win 1K. If he's called he's unlikely to be more than 33% in the hand (generous) so villains must collectively fold 1/2 the time to make this work.

In order for villains to fold 1/2 the time they must each fold ~85% of the hands they would limp with (on average). Because 85%^4=~50%. How much is 85% of the hands villain limps with?

If villain limps any broadway and any suited ace (~230 hands) he would have to fold around AQ or TT to toss out 85% of his limping hands. There is a squeeze factor, and the fact that latter limpers have a much wider range than earlier limpers, stack size, etc, but it still looks like an awful lot of hand for villains to lay down.

Re: Punish the Limpers? Party $109 hand.
 

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I think that in the later stages of an online 100+9 tourney there are some players who make notes about players who do likely steals like this one. So if I see somebody making this push twice or 3 times in a row in equal situations I´m very likely to call him down with very weak hands. If he doesn´t do it too often, I´m very inclined to pass hands like AJ. Maybe I´m wrong, but I think that there are enough players (in the "higher" online buy in events) who make notes making a move 100% of the time simply wrong.

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On the larger tournaments, it's a very rare occassion I come up against somebody who I have notes on. And I take notes on everybody who does something unusually good or bad. But I completely agree with your point. I just don't run into players that often that it's a typical situation.