Raising AJo UTG
 

I just got Turbo Texas Holdem and have started fooling around with it. I've started with some of the more borderline hands. The first thing I did was use the advisor. I rigged the deck to deal AJo utg in a tight-aggressive 10 player game. I check with the advisor and it suggests that I raise. I was kind of surprised at this as I have been folding AJo UTG for a long time, and it felt like the right play just based on my play experience.

I then put together some simulation to find the ev for an open raise with AJo from every position. This sim showed that AJo UTG is definately a -ev play. Anyone use the TTH advisor and just find that it gives bad advice?

How do ppl generally feel about raising AJo UTG in a full ring game?

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

There would have to be a reasonable chance of picking up the blinds for me to consider it.

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

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Anyone use the TTH advisor and just find that it gives bad advice?

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I have an older version than what is available now. The advice is poor in my version.

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How do ppl generally feel about raising AJo UTG in a full ring game?

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At least in small stakes games, I don't think there's much difference between raising and limping. Folding is too tight.

TTH simulations aren't given much weight around here, but that doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile fiddling around with it. You might get different results from your simulation depending on the utg player and opponent profiles. I'd suggest using the best-playing profile for the utg player and varying the styles of his opponents.

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

I raise AJo and KQo from UTG in full ring, as do just about all players in the SS forum (i would imagine Mid/Hi as well)...

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

Our B&M SS game was playing way tighter than normal for some reason or other, and as I was realizing it I looked at AJo UTG, and raised. 4 callers so I'm a little worried I'm going to have to hit to win, but I do, J high flop and my TPTK holds up. a local regular across the table says to his neighbour (rather loudly): boy I'm afraid to call Ace-jack in early position, look at this guy.

I'm fine with that.

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

Raise it up. An added benefit is TAGs will fold hands you don't really want to play against, like KQo and 88.

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

Abdul Jalib used it to determine the best starting hands from each position in a typical game. AJo is a fold UTG.

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

i would call

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

I dont like call here...
Raise, and be aware of whos in the hand, reads are everything here. If you get 1 or 2 TAG callers, be aware and hope you hit, Against lags, im raising this and not worrying to much, the local casino I play in has 7-8 lags per table and they think Ax is like gold.
cdl

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

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Abdul Jalib used it to determine the best starting hands from each position in a typical game. AJo is a fold UTG.

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I'm curious about the simulation conditions he used to come to this conclusion.

Folding is too tight for a "typical game." In the real world, AJo is a winning hand from all positions even for average (losing) players. See the PokerRoom EV Stats.

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

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Abdul Jalib used it to determine the best starting hands from each position in a typical game. AJo is a fold UTG.

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I'm curious about the simulation conditions he used to come to this conclusion.

Folding is too tight for a "typical game." In the real world, AJo is a winning hand from all positions even for average (losing) players. See the PokerRoom EV Stats.

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I don't get it. All I ever hear is people talking about getting their AA beat in online play - yet this chart is telling me that it is the best possible hand to hold.

How is this possible?





But seriously - thank you for that link - that is a great resource to have.

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

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I don't get it. All I ever hear is people talking about getting their AA beat in online play - yet this chart is telling me that it is the best possible hand to hold.

How is this possible?

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Oh, it's possible. But the variance is huge. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

This seems a bit strange. I've been using TTH for about a year now and the advisor always says call UTG with AQo. Raise with AQo in any position after that if no one else has raised. I have never seen it recommend raising with AJo except in mid-late position with nobody voluntarily in the pot.

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

If everyone would open their hymnals (aka Small Stakes Hold 'em) to page 82... [Or, if by some randomness you find yourself on a "tight" table, page 80...]

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

I just duplicated your experiment and the advisor says to call. I'm using TTH version 5.

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

I have version 6 so mabey its been changed. Seems like the cutoff for offsuit ace UTG is ATo. ATo fold, AJo raise.

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

I fold AJo in early full ring, I also fold KQo, suited I call with both.

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

As Barron pointed out, AJo is a raise UTG according to SSHE. If that's not convincing enough, I don't think a program simulating poker should be either. There are plenty of people who can show PT stats proving that raising AJo UTG is +EV. In my opinion, calling AJo UTG may be worse than folding (or close). I don't want to get in situations where I limp, someone raises, and I have to check/fold because I missed the flop. I'd rather be the aggressor. Also, limping allows other people to limp in behind. Playing a 5-way pot with AJo, for 1 bet, OOP is not my idea of a good situation to be in. Another note: the people in the mid-high stakes forum will chew you out if you say that AJo should be folded UTG.

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

I will raise it up or call, but I rarely fold it.

If called I won't get married to an Ace on the flop. I prefer getting a Jack unless I am reraised since the reraise can mean KK, QQ or even JJ although I won't get married to that Ace with a lot of resistance after the flop.

Here's how I played it a few weeks ago in a home tournament:

Blinds are at 50/100. I raise with AJ to 300. Folded to the button who minraises me. Folded around and I call.

The flop comes a Jack-high rainbow, either a great flop or a crappy one. Given that I want to figure out where I stand right now, I check and when villain bets, I check-raise him. If he went over the top I get away there.

I watched villain the whole time and although he called he didn't seem happy. So when another blank hit, I led the turn. Villain folded showing AK.

Sometimes I'll check the turn there and go into check-call or check-fold depending on the size of the bets and my feel for villain. Either way, I have to fold it if I get a lot of heat especially if a scare card hits.

Theoretically, villain will play a big pair differently than AK or AQ that misses. This is read-dependent of course.

The keys to playing any of the danger hands out of position - raise or not - is a good read on villain and the ability to lay down top pair.

I think you can play any two cards out of position if you know how to play post-flop and know your opponents.

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

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AJo is a raise UTG according to SSHE. If that's not convincing enough, I don't think a program simulating poker should be either.

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This is important, as SSH wins the Pepsi Challenge any day of the week against Random Software X.

I'm all for people using whatever tools are out there in order to better their game, but if something directly contradicts SSH, you are doing FAR more harm than good to your game.

Even if you get some semblance of "good practice" out of said software, the contradictory (read: wrong) advice is still more harmful than any positive from it.

I've played in dozens of live casinos over the last few years, and I haven't found one game at the $10-$20 or lower level where the situation wasn't correct to raise UTG AJo, given the table texture.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

Are there any mid-high stakes players that are winning with AJo UTG over 50K hands or more? Would anyone be willing to post their BB/hand with AJo UTG and similar hands such as ATo and AQo.

I mean SSH is one of the best books out there, but is there any reason behind their hand rankings other than 'because sklansky/miller say so' ? I'm interested in hard data not hand waving. For me this means either sims, or PT stats.

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

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Are there any mid-high stakes players that are winning with AJo UTG over 50K hands or more? Would anyone be willing to post their BB/hand with AJo UTG and similar hands such as ATo and AQo.

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Yes, there are mid-high stakes players winning with AJo. Whether or not they will share PT stats is another thing. I don't have 50k hands yet, so I couldn't help you out (and work this summer hasn't helped), but I guarantee you there's a reason why the people over there will berate you if you tried posting some of the ideas from this thread over there.

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I mean SSH is one of the best books out there, but is there any reason behind their hand rankings other than 'because sklansky/miller say so' ? I'm interested in hard data not hand waving. For me this means either sims, or PT stats.

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I agree that not everything in books should be taken as the bible, but I don't agree that sims constitute "hard data".

stats > books >> sims

And even that's not always true. If I see that hand X is winning over 200k hands, that probably means it's a winning hand. If I see that hand Y is losing after 200k hands, that could mean it's a losing hand, or it could mean that I'm playing it poorly.

Note: I realize that strategies in mid-high stakes games are not always applicable to small stakes games. For example, it's standard to raise 77+ UTG in the mid-high stakes forum, but if I'm playing small stakes, I'd rather limp it. So there could be an argument made that AJo is playable UTG in a 20/40 game, but not in a 2/4 game. If you're worried about something like that, you may want to talk to players who play the same stakes as yourself.

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

You are correct in thinking that you should question what you read, but you would be better served questioning the non-2+2 material out there and simply accepting the SSH charts, as they do work: for me and for countless others on this board.

It's all about that p.82...

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

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AJo is a raise UTG according to SSHE. If that's not convincing enough, I don't think a program simulating poker should be either.

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This is important, as SSH wins the Pepsi Challenge any day of the week against Random Software X.

I'm all for people using whatever tools are out there in order to better their game, but if something directly contradicts SSH, you are doing FAR more harm than good to your game.

Even if you get some semblance of "good practice" out of said software, the contradictory (read: wrong) advice is still more harmful than any positive from it.

I've played in dozens of live casinos over the last few years, and I haven't found one game at the $10-$20 or lower level where the situation wasn't correct to raise UTG AJo, given the table texture.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

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What does that mean, that the table texture is exactly the same at all 10-20 limit games and below? That is certainly not my experience. Maybe I'm just picking bad games, but the vast majority of the 10-20 and 15-30 games I play in (in NYC) are far tougher and more aggressive than the typical "SSHE game".
I have to agree with Abdul Jalib. AJo is a fold from UTG in most full ring games, as are the baby pairs and some others that SSHE recommends playing.

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

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Maybe I'm just picking bad games....

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Could be.

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I have to agree with Abdul Jalib. AJo is a fold from UTG in most full ring games....

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More PokerRoom stats (position 3 is UTG):

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>Total EV statistics for AJ


Your query:

* Pocket cards: AJ
* Position: any
* Players: any
* Table limit: $10/20

Position
Players 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
2 0.3 0.35 - - - - - - - -
3 0.49 0.33 0.55 - - - - - - -
4 0.27 0.36 0.21 0.49 - - - - - -
5 0.21 0.12 0.25 0.29 0.45 - - - - -
6 0.17 0.08 0.3 0.19 0.36 0.16 - - - -
7 0.18 0.16 0.2 0.06 0.27 0.08 0.15 - - -
8 0.17 0.12 0.05 0.1 0.03 0.31 0.31 0.3 - -
9 0.11 0.13 0.19 0.18 0.24 0.03 0.14 0.27 0.14 -
10 -0.07 0.08 0.1 0.2 0.24 0.16 0.12 0.25 0.24 0.21

The total average for AJ is 0.19 (regardless of table limit, position and number of players).
</pre><hr />

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

The more I think of it the more I realise it doesnt matter all that much. Raising/folding/calling AJo UTG are all marginal plays (-/+ or not could probably be argued all day), on a decision you are going to make once every 1000 hands.

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

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What does that mean, that the table texture is exactly the same at all 10-20 limit games and below? That is certainly not my experience. Maybe I'm just picking bad games, but the vast majority of the 10-20 and 15-30 games I play in (in NYC) are far tougher and more aggressive than the typical "SSHE game".
I have to agree with Abdul Jalib. AJo is a fold from UTG in most full ring games, as are the baby pairs and some others that SSHE recommends playing.

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While I have played in the casinos in NY State, I will say I have never played in NYC, so I cannot comment on the games there, and will instead defer to your impression OR say that perhaps you should pick better tables, as you hinted at, but...

While I have as of late started playing higher stakes live, a majority of the last year I have played at around the $10-$20 level. I have logged 100+ live sessions in the last year, so my sample size is not insignificant.

I can't remember a table where I was like, Holy cow, I must ignore hands A-C that SSH recommends...

I have found it, frankly, quite on the money.

Your results and perception obviously vary, which is fine, but I think as a general rule of thumb, anyone walking into any casino anywhere at the $10-$20 and smaller stakes (and oftentimes $15-30, $20-$40, and above) can pretty much apply SSH verbatim and do well.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

I'd rather raise it than call it on tight tables where you can sometimes get the blinds from UTG. One or two callers at most is not too bad. I don't like to fold it. I just checked PT though, and I'm only breaking even with it from UTG. Small sample size though.

Short hand it's an autoraise every time.

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

AJ is definately a situational hand as is KQ or the dreaded KJ. Early in a tournament setting I won't play any of these hands and if I have a large stack I will play these hands aggresively but with caution when it comes to reraises preflop. Money game I would bring it in for a raise UTG without a doubt. I really believe the hands mentioned above need to be played based on your table image. Are you very aggresive or a tight solid player. I myself am I tight player and won't put any thought into dumping those hands. These kinds of hands are debated by every author in texas holdem literature. TJ Cloutier even makes it a point in his book on tournament holdem, co-authored by Tom McEVOY, on how he and Tom all though both conservative players, dont agree on how to play several different hands.

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

My experience is for 2/4 and 3/6 with these hands.

I just had to answer this one. At 1st I thought folding or limping with AJo and KQo was correct. But limping SUCKS!!!! I limp then 4 people enter and your almost 1st to act. You gotta bet into all these callers that can have anything. If I get reraised preflop it is much easier for me to play my hand.

But then I took about 50,000 hands and said F$*K it. I started raising with KQo and AJo UTG.

What I found that because I play well I was able to make both those hands profitable.

But I think it did something else. Because I raised with more hands UTG I got called more with my premiums and made more money from those hands. I think the poorer players saw that I was raising with AJ and KQ and started thinking Im loose and that I might be also raising with KT KJ AT... So they called more with more dominated hands.

I think to play these hands you have to know how to play them and you have to really know the player reraising you if it comes down to that. I think raising preflop makes it easier to play.

My 2 cents.

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

I just realized that the OP never specified what kind of game. I was talking about limit, obviously. For NL, I'm pretty sure it's an auto-fold, no debate. For tourneys, talk to someone else.

Re: Raising AJo UTG
 

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Because I raised with more hands UTG I got called more with my premiums and made more money from those hands.

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Exactly.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com