I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

First off a question that I think echoes bruiser's sentiments in a past post:

I feel like I play bad. Today was just like the other days, but when i look back at hands, I still feel I misplay a lot. Maybe it's because i'll play so long and see so many hands but i don't think that's it. The more I look, it's hard to believe other players are playing so much worse, but they are otherwise I wouldn't be winning.

I guess I'm becoming much more harshly introspective due to the new amounts of money for which i'm playing. Those little missed bets etc. are now $200 mistakes.

To the experienced players/posters:

Does there come a point where you play a session and say "wow, i played perfectly there"? I sure haven't had one of those, even on the days where i book huge wins.


Hand 1

Villain is flat out terrible. I can't describe how bad this guy is. Erattic, call any raise with any two, call to the river with a pair. stuck about 13 buyins thus far, the table waitlist is 3 times as long as i've ever seen it.

I (cover) open on CO with AK[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], villain (1000) calls on button, blinds fold

678 all [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (80)

I bet 80, he calls

9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (240)

check, check

K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (240)

check, I bet 100, he c/r to 200




Hand 2

Villain is very very good. mentioned in previous post, he plays what seems to be 12 hour days. he's almost always up and varies from tight to very loose as the button nears. his opener could be anything playable.


Villain (3K) opens for 35 in MP, two callers, I (cover) raise to 200 with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (this is rarely a steal) in SB, villain calls, limps out.

6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (480)

check, check

T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (300)

I bet 300, he calls

T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (900)

I check, he bets 900



fim

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

Hand 1: Why are you betting this river given this opponent description. Just check.

Hand 2: I feel like a river blocking bet would be nice, but otherwise I fold. Didn't feel like betting this river?

I hear what you are saying about the mistaks, I think a lot about that too, the missed river bets, the paid off river bets, the river seems to hound me more than the flop/turn. I feel that while I still have a lot to learn about the flop/turn, I have even more to learn about the river. What was that saying from the limit forum, something like "if TA could play every river for me, I would earn one extra bet an hour for life" or something like that. That's how I feel about my river play in NL.

There are times where I look back at a hand and think, I played that perfectly. These happen every few sessions. In other words, 1000s of hands and only one that was played "perfectly". I think so many things have to be aligned perfectly (for lack of a better word) to execute a hand perfectly. It's a whole combination of things which makes sense why it only happens rarely for me. As for sessions, I think it will be decades (if ever) where I can say I played every hand flawlessy from start to finish. I don't think it's possible. It requires too much. I don't know, just my thoughts.

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

I kick myself at least 10 times a session thinking I should have done something other than what I did. Two things to keep in mind. First, most of these mistakes are small from an EV perspective, and although we want to try and play mistake free, even the very best don't do that all the time. Second, if your multitabling, this is the cause of many of your mistakes. You more than make up for those little mistakes (from a $ per hour standpoint) by seeing all those extra hands and taking advantage of all those extra big mistakes your opponents make.

I try and play perfect when I play live (rare, that I play live or perfect).

Hand #1: Check behind the river. The only problem I see with this is you were in the CO and he was on the button.

Hand #2: Make your continuation bet on the flop and end it there. If he calls, you are thru with the hand. Or check the flop, check the turn, block the river. Or, with stacks that deep in a position I don't steal from often, I might flat call preflop. Then, same lines as above except a much smaller pot.

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

yeah river bet is very bad in hand 1.

hand 2 is very tough. He can be betting here with KK, AhKh (less likely), or the T.

The reason hands aren't played perfectly very often is because you can ONLY play a hand perfectly if you know:
A) all your opponent's tendencies
B) your opponents exact hole cards

Since you can't know a and b for sure, you can only play a hand perfect very rarely; ie. when you [luckily] put an opponent on a hand correctly, and bet accordingly. It's very hard to do. Everytime you make a mistake, you feel like an idiot, but in actuality, if your opponent happened to have the range of hands you put him on, your play would have been good.

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

play perfect poker
play perfect poker
play perfect poker

keep repeating this to yourself as you play

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
play perfect poker
play perfect poker
play perfect poker

keep repeating this to yourself as you play

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL. Thats about as helpful as saying
[censored] Jessica Alba
[censored] Jessica Alba
[censored] Jessica Alba

in getting to actually [censored] her.

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

no matter how much of a donk this guy is, why are you value betting a pair on a four flush four str8 board? he has a pulse, he sees the draws on the flop. since he is a donk he is probably drawing to one of them. check behind.

hand 2. if i am playing against a very very good player, i am not looking to play a big pot oop with jj [or any pair]; especially when his range is "any reasonable hand", especially with 300 BB stacks. especially when i have defined my holding pf. by reraising oop you enter post flop play with an immediate disadvantage against an opponent who is capable of exploiting it. you are setting yourself up to make very costly decisions on subsequent streets. there is no shame in going to a flop and playing this hand for set value or playing it aggro on an undercard flop.

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

hand 2 question:

anyone else get massive alarm bells going off after the preflop action?

fim

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
play perfect poker
play perfect poker
play perfect poker

keep repeating this to yourself as you play

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL. Thats about as helpful as saying
[censored] Jessica Alba
[censored] Jessica Alba
[censored] Jessica Alba

in getting to actually [censored] her.

[/ QUOTE ]

Though i know the chance of this working is slim to none, the reward is great enough to make the time investment worthwile.

now, back to chanting for me.

fim

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

fim, why are you betting the flop in hand 1? from what you describe of this villian he's not folding any possible holding on that flop, u just get a bigger pot on scary board with A high oop with no clue as to his holding, check fold for me there, could well be folding the best hand, but less -ev than playing on i think. and in hand 2 i vote for fold river, i mean ifyou were given this hand history and we did a poll 'who thinks hero in this hand called river?' i bet more than 50% would say hero called; dont think this villian can expect you to fold more than half of the time, so he has something that wins.

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

Hand #1


[ QUOTE ]

check, I bet 100, he c/r to 200

[/ QUOTE ]

This action doesn't make sense. You were in the cutoff and he was last to act on button. He could not check-raise you.

I agree with the majority of posters. Some flops are for you, and some aren't. You can't bluff the unbluffable, so you have to pick your spots better. To fire once on the flop was ok, but once that failed, I think that you should shut down.

Hand #2.

I'm not so sure I like re-raising from OOP in SB with JJ against a "very very good player" who initially raised. I'm sure your fondness for the two limpers' dead money has something to do with it.

Call me conservative, but I'd call and see the flop. Lead the flop big or check-raise if I feel villian is committed to leading the flop hit or miss on that innocuous flop.

As the action stands, fold the river for 900. He's value betting AA/KK here. The gig is up. He knows what you have...

Garland

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like I play bad. Today was just like the other days, but when i look back at hands, I still feel I misplay a lot. Maybe it's because i'll play so long and see so many hands but i don't think that's it. The more I look, it's hard to believe other players are playing so much worse, but they are otherwise I wouldn't be winning.

I guess I'm becoming much more harshly introspective due to the new amounts of money for which i'm playing. Those little missed bets etc. are now $200 mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I came out of an exam once and thought I'd done pretty well. When the results came out, I failed. Badly. I couldn't understand. Everything I'd learned I'd put into my answers perfectly.
Thing is, when I came to resit I realised that I'd hardly revised half the topic the first time around.

This is a gay way of saying that it's good that you know you're making mistakes. Other people make much bigger mistakes than you're listing but are totally oblivious of the fact. Instead, they tend to say (or type) "that's poker".

Play more, experiment more, make more mistakes, learn the game. Worry only if you're not assessing at the table or if you're not following through on your assessments.

This advice comes free of charge.

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

depends on how fast you're playing. Normally, players are not calling a 3-bet without QQ+ unless they think you'll payoff a set or some other disguised hand.

He's a winning player but does he think he can outplay you, with position? If so, his hand range has not been limited much.

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

I'm not really experienced, but when I'm running really well and hitting cards, I sometimes feel like I'm playing well, but I still make dumb mistakes that are immediately obvious after the hand. I play two-hour sessions most of the time, and I still make tons of mistakes. I think a perfect session is pretty much impossible.

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

Hand #1) Impossible to be check raised when you are out of position

Hand #2) The pot suddenly went from 480 down to 300 from the flop to the turn.

Its amazing that I was able to find these mistakes since I "only have a rudimentary knowledge of NL poker" and since I have "below avg intellignce" and was only able to become a cop because there are "no entrance requirements".

Sorry guys, I couldnt resist. Dont worry. Hes ignoring me anyway and cant see this post, remember?

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

Its amazing that I was able to find these mistakes since I "only have a rudimentary knowledge of NL poker" and since I have "below avg intellignce" and was only able to become a cop because there are "no entrance requirements".

Please..PLEASE dont start this BS again.

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]

Its amazing that I was able to find these mistakes since I "only have a rudimentary knowledge of NL poker" and since I have "below avg intellignce" and was only able to become a cop because there are "no entrance requirements".

Please..PLEASE dont start this BS again.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he really IS ignoring me he wouldnt have seen my post until you just quoted it. That was real bright. You probably did it on purpose.

The river bet in hand #1 is one of the worst bets Ive ever seen and the next time he makes some "you suck at poker" comment to me, I'll be referring back to this hand.

He has continued his assault on me in ways you dont know about, so dont tell me not to start it again. HE wont allow it to stop.

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]

Its amazing that I was able to find these mistakes since I "only have a rudimentary knowledge of NL poker" and since I have "below avg intellignce" and was only able to become a cop because there are "no entrance requirements".

Please..PLEASE dont start this BS again.

[/ QUOTE ]

is this a joke? if not putting this guy on ignore was the best thing i ever did on 2+2.

fim

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

fim,

I think you need to take some time to re-tool your betting strategies on the flop in particular but also on all streets. You should be able to have a main plan with appropriate randomizing player-depended elements for common situations, and especially regarding your position relative to your opponent and the flop type. You are giving aggressive players with position too many opportunities to take the pot from you, whether by betting on the river when you should check as in hand #2, or by not leading/checkraising the flop when you were the preflop raisier from the blinds and a scary board comes. If the villain in this case is constantly calling behind your raises to steal, then you might have to checkraise allin or push in front on the turn to take away those steals, even though you are putting too much money in the pot for the strength of your hand and considering the fact that he might occasionally be slowplaying a big hand. All the common situations, TPTK, overpair to the board, set, big draw, AK no help on the flop, etc. should be set in your plan so their play is automatic, and would vary by being in or out of position. Playing all those different types of hands in similar ways is a big randomizer.

All of this of course depends on how you read your opponent to play various hands. I find that when I make mistakes, either by calling when beat or being too aggressive for the strength of my hand, it is because the read I think I have on that opponent was right in the past but wrong now. Which means he has adapted to how he plays against me, and which I now have to adapt to in turn. This is a key point with players you regularly play with.

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
fim,

I think you need to take some time to re-tool your betting strategies on the flop in particular but also on all streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

uh, what? these hands are anything but standard.

[ QUOTE ]
You should be able to have a main plan with appropriate randomizing player-depended elements for common situations, and especially regarding your position relative to your opponent and the flop type. You are giving aggressive players with position too many opportunities to take the pot from you, whether by betting on the river when you should check as in hand #2,

[/ QUOTE ]

you think i was bluffed in hand 2?

[ QUOTE ]
or by not leading/checkraising the flop when you were the preflop raisier from the blinds and a scary board comes. If the villain in this case is constantly calling behind your raises to steal, then you might have to checkraise allin or push in front on the turn to take away those steals, even though you are putting too much money in the pot for the strength of your hand and considering the fact that he might occasionally be slowplaying a big hand. All the common situations, TPTK, overpair to the board, set, big draw, AK no help on the flop, etc. should be set in your plan so their play is automatic, and would vary by being in or out of position. Playing all those different types of hands in similar ways is a big randomizer.

[/ QUOTE ]

this statement doesn't make sense WRT your previous one.

[ QUOTE ]
All of this of course depends on how you read your opponent to play various hands. I find that when I make mistakes, either by calling when beat or being too aggressive for the strength of my hand, it is because the read I think I have on that opponent was right in the past but wrong now. Which means he has adapted to how he plays against me, and which I now have to adapt to in turn. This is a key point with players you regularly play with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think my opponents are constantly changing their overall strategy at a $1K game? I sure don't/haven't seen any evidence of it.

fim

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Its amazing that I was able to find these mistakes since I "only have a rudimentary knowledge of NL poker" and since I have "below avg intellignce" and was only able to become a cop because there are "no entrance requirements".

Please..PLEASE dont start this BS again.

[/ QUOTE ]

is this a joke? if not putting this guy on ignore was the best thing i ever did on 2+2.

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

No, youre a joke and your little ploy didnt work.
Dont ever say anything to me about playing bad after you bet the river in this hand. Its absolutley horrible.

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

2. couldn't Villian have A-k, A-q, hoping for a split pot or 8-8 and 9-9. Wouldn't he have re-raISED with Aces, Kings or queens pre-flop? I call.

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fim,

I think you need to take some time to re-tool your betting strategies on the flop in particular but also on all streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

uh, what? these hands are anything but standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are standard in that you know how strong your hand is in relation to various flops and and how your opponents play various hands. FWIW I would never reraise with JJ in the sb here uless you are also *occasionally* doing it with T9s/98s etc. Otherwise you are giving an opponent with position on you too much information about the likely range of your hands which gives him more opportunities to steal depending on how scary the board comes.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You should be able to have a main plan with appropriate randomizing player-depended elements for common situations, and especially regarding your position relative to your opponent and the flop type. You are giving aggressive players with position too many opportunities to take the pot from you, whether by betting on the river when you should check as in hand #2,

[/ QUOTE ]

you think i was bluffed in hand 2?

[/ QUOTE ]

At that point your hand might be good enough to call but it is definintely not good enough to bet since you can only get called if beat usually and also have exposed yourself to a steal if the stacks are deep enough. You should have checked it and given him a chance to bluff or bet a worse hand, which helps make up for the times when you check/call and are beat.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
or by not leading/checkraising the flop when you were the preflop raisier from the blinds and a scary board comes. If the villain in this case is constantly calling behind your raises to steal, then you might have to checkraise allin or push in front on the turn to take away those steals, even though you are putting too much money in the pot for the strength of your hand and considering the fact that he might occasionally be slowplaying a big hand. All the common situations, TPTK, overpair to the board, set, big draw, AK no help on the flop, etc. should be set in your plan so their play is automatic, and would vary by being in or out of position. Playing all those different types of hands in similar ways is a big randomizer.

[/ QUOTE ]

this statement doesn't make sense WRT your previous one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I mean that although I usually lead when the pre-flop raiser, I also go for a checkraise when I am certain the likelihood of the particular oppenent betting is high given his aggressive nature. If he good at taking free cards to drawing/marginal hands I would always bet. Obviously when you have a 3 straight board you will often have to be prepared to fold if there is significant action and you hold only an overpair. But in general you are checking too much out of position which gives you no information on the opponent's hand and which risks a free card which means that many more hands are possible on the turn and it will be harder to read out of position.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All of this of course depends on how you read your opponent to play various hands. I find that when I make mistakes, either by calling when beat or being too aggressive for the strength of my hand, it is because the read I think I have on that opponent was right in the past but wrong now. Which means he has adapted to how he plays against me, and which I now have to adapt to in turn. This is a key point with players you regularly play with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think my opponents are constantly changing their overall strategy at a $1K game? I sure don't/haven't seen any evidence of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I mean that the better players, which villain seems to be in these cases do change how they play against particular opponents based upon how that opponent plays them. You should be doing the same. The weak-tight set farmers are the ones who never adjust to anything.

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fim,

I think you need to take some time to re-tool your betting strategies on the flop in particular but also on all streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

uh, what? these hands are anything but standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are standard in that you know how strong your hand is in relation to various flops and and how your opponents play various hands. FWIW I would never reraise with JJ in the sb here uless you are also *occasionally* doing it with T9s/98s etc. Otherwise you are giving an opponent with position on you too much information about the likely range of your hands which gives him more opportunities to steal depending on how scary the board comes.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You should be able to have a main plan with appropriate randomizing player-depended elements for common situations, and especially regarding your position relative to your opponent and the flop type. You are giving aggressive players with position too many opportunities to take the pot from you, whether by betting on the river when you should check as in hand #2,

[/ QUOTE ]

you think i was bluffed in hand 2?

[/ QUOTE ]

At that point your hand might be good enough to call but it is definintely not good enough to bet since you can only get called if beat usually and also have exposed yourself to a steal if the stacks are deep enough. You should have checked it and given him a chance to bluff or bet a worse hand, which helps make up for the times when you check/call and are beat.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
or by not leading/checkraising the flop when you were the preflop raisier from the blinds and a scary board comes. If the villain in this case is constantly calling behind your raises to steal, then you might have to checkraise allin or push in front on the turn to take away those steals, even though you are putting too much money in the pot for the strength of your hand and considering the fact that he might occasionally be slowplaying a big hand. All the common situations, TPTK, overpair to the board, set, big draw, AK no help on the flop, etc. should be set in your plan so their play is automatic, and would vary by being in or out of position. Playing all those different types of hands in similar ways is a big randomizer.

[/ QUOTE ]

this statement doesn't make sense WRT your previous one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I mean that although I usually lead when the pre-flop raiser, I also go for a checkraise when I am certain the likelihood of the particular oppenent betting is high given his aggressive nature. If he good at taking free cards to drawing/marginal hands I would always bet. Obviously when you have a 3 straight board you will often have to be prepared to fold if there is significant action and you hold only an overpair. But in general you are checking too much out of position which gives you no information on the opponent's hand and which risks a free card which means that many more hands are possible on the turn and it will be harder to read out of position.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All of this of course depends on how you read your opponent to play various hands. I find that when I make mistakes, either by calling when beat or being too aggressive for the strength of my hand, it is because the read I think I have on that opponent was right in the past but wrong now. Which means he has adapted to how he plays against me, and which I now have to adapt to in turn. This is a key point with players you regularly play with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think my opponents are constantly changing their overall strategy at a $1K game? I sure don't/haven't seen any evidence of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I mean that the better players, which villain seems to be in these cases do change how they play against particular opponents based upon how that opponent plays them. You should be doing the same. The weak-tight set farmers are the ones who never adjust to anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

honestly, none of what you just said is cogent. i really disagree with all of it, but this:

[ QUOTE ]
I mean that the better players, which villain seems to be in these cases do change how they play against particular opponents based upon how that opponent plays them. You should be doing the same. The weak-tight set farmers are the ones who never adjust to anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

is also illogical. there is one player in the game this guy would gain from if he "switched gears" etc. there are 8 others who he would lose from. his expectation from me long term is maybe .2BB/100. his expectation from each of them is closer to 1.5BB/100.

do you think a good player is adjusting his strategy in this case?

fim

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

With more on how bad other players play. At least two times today, they could have had my stack. Left me with $60 and $120 ($2/$4). That's $180 I was willing to lose, but they let me keep it.

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

After reading this forum for the past 3 or so weeks, I feel that I'm a rank newbie again. I can't believe how badly I play. And yet, I still win.

I just accept that I've got a ways to go. But recognizing the long list of constant mistakes keeps me humble about my skills and my place in the poker ecosystem. In other words, feeling this is healthy, IMO.

Marlow

Re: I Suck: Two Hands AK and JJ 5/10
 

fim,

Regarding changing strategies I do mean the concept of changing gears. I am merely saying that your regular opponents, even the bad ones, over time can get a very good feel for how you play and adjust accordingly, which means their reactions to you are no longer easy to read or the ones you want. If you habitually slowplay they will just take all the free cards they can to bust you. If you never are willing to overbet or push to protct a marginal hand, they will just keep calling in position to steal. If you play different hands different ways they will read you like a book. And if you never ever raise utg with 87s or 66 or push preflop to a reraise with AK when playing a moderate stack, then they won't give your good hands any action.