Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

I accidentally played limit hold'em in Vegas. It was early morning and five-handed.

A drunk folds and I raise from the CO with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. A Swede folds, SB 3-bets, BB folds, and I call.

The nerdy SB has a shiny WSOP bracelet on his wrist and obvious self-esteem issues. He and the drunk have been doing the classic nerd vs. jock [censored]-talking, and WSOP is upset. He has been 3-betting liberally preflop in and out of position. Earlier he checkraised me and folded to a 3-bet on a paired flop heads-up. There is a fair amount of distrust in the game but no one except the drunk is playing wildly.

I have been opening quite a bit and he has seen me play some flush draws fast, but I have not been getting especially out of line. When I sat down I tried to play no-limit, which confused everybody.

Flop J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

WSOP bets, I raise (why can't I go all-in?), He 3-bets, I 4-bet and he calls.

Turn 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Checkcheck.

River 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

He bets and I call.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

Don't like it that much.

If you're going to 4 bet, bet the turn. Maybe he'll decide his 7's are no good and muck. Not likely but if he's got overs too you're putting the preasure on. If he check raises you no big deal you have plenty of outs. I also think the river isn't an auto call really. He knows that if you were on busted spades you're not calling, so unless he has something like 76 himself, he's not going to bet. Like AK/q/T etc or something he's almost surely not betting. I just think this way of playing a hand might seem fun and cute but really I don't think it's the optimal way to play it.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

I would bet the turn and take a free showdown unimproved.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

I don't love the turn check. getting him to fold a 6 outer is well worth the price of getting check raised when behind as you have some equity on money that goes in on the turn. yuo also actually have a decent chance at folding a better hand either right there or with a river bet. The pot is big enough now that losing all bluffing equity not worth saving a bet/getting a free card.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet the turn and take a free showdown unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

[ QUOTE ]
When I sat down I tried to play no-limit, which confused everybody

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

I think a much better line here is to just call his flop 3 bet and then to raise him on the turn. Now he might actually fold something.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

An accidental game with a drunk, a Swede, and a WSOP bracelet wearer with self-esteem issues. Love it.

Just curious: would your hand in that situation against that guy merit an all-in bet on the flop in no-limit? Thanks.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think a much better line here is to just call his flop 3 bet and then to raise him on the turn. Now he might actually fold something.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with Paluka.

That turn check is awful.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

[ QUOTE ]
An accidental game with a drunk, a Swede, and a WSOP bracelet wearer with self-esteem issues. Love it.

Just curious: would your hand in that situation against that guy merit an all-in bet on the flop in no-limit? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've put it all in on worse. a lot worse.... [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just curious: would your hand in that situation against that guy merit an all-in bet on the flop in no-limit? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

a post for Andy

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

with this WSOP guy he will surely think many of his pair hands are good here and play them that fast against you on this two tone board.

the lines to take that may gain fold equity are a) cap the flop and bet the turn when checked to. or b) call the 3 bet and raise the turn.

this will very likely get him to release his pair hands and may earn you a free showdown if you choose to take it (which is dont think is a good idea...). further, i dont think he'll 3 bet you here w/o at least a set, and unless he's 3betting the lower pairs there too its a set of jacks...and i think HU he'd slow down on the flop with a hand that big.

i just dont like capping the flop AND NOT betting the turn.

-Barron

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think a much better line here is to just call his flop 3 bet and then to raise him on the turn. Now he might actually fold something.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's short handed. He's not (I assume, I don't know him and hell he might be a fold-donk) folding anything that the pair of 5's will beat no matter how you pressure him.

Given that, I like getting to the showdown cheaper than with the turn raise. Getting a little more action on the flop where you're almost always a favorite is better than maybe trapping yourself for 3 bets on the turn when you can't fold.

I think a lot of people will see this as giving up on the turn, but inducing the river bluff is something that has some value as well, and needs to be considered.

~D

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think a lot of people will see this as giving up on the turn, but inducing the river bluff is something that has some value as well, and needs to be considered.


[/ QUOTE ]

inducing a bluff when villian has outs loses some of its value.

it is a definately thing to consider though b/c you do gain value when its a time you're behind ... but he can't fold turn or river if you dont bet. and you dont want to be seen as somebody to F*CK with or who gives up easily (checking the turn) after capping the flop. image is definately imortant here for the rest of the hands vs. WSOP boy.

-Barron

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

4 bets on the flop seems a bit spazzy, not that that's necessarily a bad thing. Maybe play a bit more passive in these games where everyone is suspicious.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

Duke nailed this, he's not folding any hand that 3 bets the flop on this board. In your line there is no way i'm betting this turn, he's folding nothing and we are more likely to be taking a free card than giving one.

Thus my only decision is, if i want to 4 bet and get to showdown cheaply at the cost of losing implied odds on the turn or if i want to call the 3 bet, keep implied odds on the turn but pay more for showdown; in those two lines i prefer your line.

I think this hand was played as well as possible.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

Well it seems to me that under reasonable assumptions (opponent sensibly more likely to have the best hand, check raise a minority of time and check raise means best hand in the vast majority of time), then betting the turn and checking the showdown is actually cheaper than taking the free card and calling the river.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

standard. 4 bet preflop and bet the turn make sense too though. lots of legit feel based ways to play a hand like this. shorthanded against obsevant opponents you should tend to opt for the less predictable/stranger route whenever it's close.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

Hi Gift:

You have an easy call.

Many times in this spot the super aggressive will three bet the flop hoping to get you to laydown when he bets the next round. If that's the case, you messed up his plans with your four bet.

When you check the turn, you're inviting the bluff. So given the size of the pot, you should catch him bluffing often enough to make a profit on the call.

By the way, in these spots, a good hand to gamble with is precisely the type of hand you flopped, a pair and a flush draw. You're usually a slight favorite to win the pot on the flop, and occasionally have the best hand with your small pair.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

Hi Stox:

Your answer is incorrect. The correct answer has to do with exactly how often he might be out of line and will then bluff the river after your fourth street check. With some players, their chance of being out of line on the flop is quite high, and then their chance of bluffing the river is also quite high. With this type of opponent, it's clearly correct to check the turn.

By the way, many of these real aggressive types, if they held a real hand, will always go for a check raise on fourth street after you raise on the flop. That's part of the reason why your answer is not correct. Their three betting the flop actully means less strebgth, not more.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

"Their three betting the flop actully means less strength, not more."

well done. but beware because particularly good players hang players who read hands and try and pick off rampant aggression. what we do is we go aggro on all streets with our best hands per feeney's essay from his book for instance.

additionally players who fastplay everything and make it very hard to read them are unfortunately fairly commong at higher limits.

Thanks n/t
 

.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

I much prefer to bet the turn here after the flop action.
1. Some better hands will fold.
2. If he is drawing to a flush as well, it hides your hand better and you can get more bets in on the river if you both hit. Plus you get the bet in now vs. hoping he will bluff the river.
3. Given the strength you shown, it will be difficult for him to CR the turn w/o a monster, so you can take the free showdown if he calls the turn, which I assume once he calls the turn any better hand than yours unimproved will call the river so betting again on the end seems pointless.
4. If he does CR the turn you have plenty of outs to improve.

Either way, if you are going to play the flop the way you did you need to bet the turn. Otherwise, just call the flop 3B and raise the turn.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

IMO the turn check exposes your hand.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

is it the WSOP winner I am thinking of? the fat kid from virginia?

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

[ QUOTE ]
IMO the turn check exposes your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

It exposes it as a flush draw, but the paired 5 could easily be good. So, it doesn't really expose it.

~D

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think a much better line here is to just call his flop 3 bet and then to raise him on the turn. Now he might actually fold something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

Gab --

I think you played this correctly on every street. The turn check is mandatory because your hand is weak, given your flop play. The river call is mandatory because you wouldn't exactly want to fold to something like 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] would you?

The flop is somewhat interesting. The fact that he has seen you seen you play some flush draws fast is a reason to slow down here -- i.e. to stop at two bets. Now if the flush comes he is likely to figure you don't have it.

That said the fact that you have a pair to go with your draw, and the fact that he once check/raised you and folded to a 3-bet (albeit on a paired flop) are both reasons to play it the way you did. On balance I think your play is right.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

I agree, i overestimated the chance gab could get a better hand to laydown with a turn and river bet. I think that is very very unlikely and not worth getting check raised on the turn plus sacrificing the times you unduce a bluff on the river from a worse hand.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

You played the hand great. I can't see any problems with it. You should tell them the story about you playing "NL" in this game thought. It's better.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

I know you're busy running the twoplustwo machine (and I thank you for that because your books have made me money) but I'd bet many of us are ready for the next Mason book. Any plans?

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

The Swede was a great player, easily the best in the game.

[ QUOTE ]
would your hand in that situation against that guy merit an all-in bet on the flop in no-limit?

[/ QUOTE ]
Probably, especially if you are sick like me and enjoy flipping coins for all the money.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

I am young and can't help being a spazz.

Results
 

He had TT and won. I thought his river bet was strange, since I looked more likely to bluff then call a bet.

After the hand I wasn't too happy with my line, though I'm glad not everyone thinks it was horrible. When he three-bet the flop I thought he had 77+, a flush draw, or occasionally nothing. I knew I had an equity edge on the flop and was paranoid about getting checkraised on the turn, so I didn't give enough weight to my chances of folding the underpairs. I think there was a chance I could've got him to fold 77-TT with a turn raise, so Paluka's line is probably best.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

I come to the Wynn because my friend says there's a 25-50 NL game going, and when I get to the poker room he points me to a table in the back corner. It's 3-handed at this point and everyone has piles of green, black and cash. I walk over and buy in.

The Wynn sells smoothies by volume in metric and the floorman takes forever to bring my chips, so I'm a little confused and distracted. I'm not paying much attention the the action, but I do notice that the blinds are 75-150 instead of 25-50. I fold some trash in my blinds while trying to decide if I can drink a half liter of smoothie. On my first button I pick up TT and open for 450.

The dealer says, "sir, that's too much." I notice everyone is staring at me. I pull back 150 and pretend nothing happened.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

Hi Love:

There are no plans at this moment for me to do another book. My efforts are being concentrated on bringing out other top notch books by other authors.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]
He had TT and won. I thought his river bet was strange, since I looked more likely to bluff then call a bet.

After the hand I wasn't too happy with my line, though I'm glad not everyone thinks it was horrible. When he three-bet the flop I thought he had 77+, a flush draw, or occasionally nothing. I knew I had an equity edge on the flop and was paranoid about getting checkraised on the turn, so I didn't give enough weight to my chances of folding the underpairs. I think there was a chance I could've got him to fold 77-TT with a turn raise, so Paluka's line is probably best.

[/ QUOTE ]

By the way, I think your line is actually fine if you are planning on folding the river. I don't think the guy is bluffing. In high limit games, nobody gives up on the turn in a big pot like that. So usually the turn check is for cheap showdown purposes or because you are on a pure draw. So bluffing the river is pointless, you either have a hand you are calling with or a missed draw. Any bet here by an experienced player is a value bet, unless somehow he was on the same flush draw.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

[ QUOTE ]
The nerdy SB has a shiny WSOP bracelet on his wrist and obvious self-esteem issues.

[/ QUOTE ]

No sense beating around the bush GOG. We all know the player in question's name start with a "Dan" and rhymes with Scruff.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

I was the "WSOP boy" in question.

It's sad that "The Gift" here couldn't just discuss the hand in question, without peppering the message with lame insults and pseudo-intellectual psychobabble. I could make a few comments about him, but I'll refrain for now...

Regarding the situation and the hand:

1) It is true that a drunk sat down in the game. The drunk was strange. At first he acted like he had no clue what he was doing (so badly that it seemed over-the-top and phony), and kept proclaiming he was drunk. He must have said he was drunk about 10 times in the first 5 minutes at the table. Despite all of this, he was folding every hand. Finally I got tired of this apparent ruse, amd I told him that none of us were buying his act. But...

It turned out that he really WAS a clueless drunk, as his subsequent play showed! The tightness ended, and he really did seem to be drunk without an idea of how to play properly. He chunked off a good 10k or so rather quickly before leaving. However, he was insulted that I called him a liar, and he started talking trash to me. I talked trash back to him, and basically acted like I was raising hands wildly because he was firing me up. Not true at all. I did this on purpose, and decided that, the way this guy was playing, I could get a lot more action from him when I did have good (or ideally great) hands. After taking a few beats against him early, I did indeed beat him out of a lot of his money.

"The Gift" tries to make us understand that I was agitated, but in the example he posted about, I had tens -- a very strong hand shorthanded, and certainly strong on a jack-rag-rag flop. I won't bother to further explain my play on that one. Some people have already explained it pretty well.

"The Gift" can say what he wants regarding me being "nerdy", but the fact is that the only reason the trash talking started between me and the "jock" (more like a fat, drunk idiot) was because I was the one who had the stones to call the guy out on what appeared to be a fake drunk act. (Everyone else at the table just quietly whispered about this, afraid to confront him.) Once it turned out he really was a drunk, I was the only one going back and forth with the guy in order to get more action out of him.

I guess that "The Gift" saw this whole thing as some "nerd vs. jock" routine out of a bad '80s teen movie, rather than the situation it really was.

I guess some of us call out the jerks at the table (and get their action), while others slink away quietly and post on forums from the safety of their computer.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess some of us call out the jerks at the table (and get their action), while others slink away quietly and post on forums from the safety of their computer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Being the Noted Poker Authority (trademark pending), I receive a lot of unsolicited (and often unwanted) attention from men and women alike. Recently, it's begun to get out of hand, so I'm looking to hire a personal security liason.

I've searched high and low, and no one yet has had the elusive combination of keen wit and old-fashioned moxie necessary to protect my well-being from the unwashed masses. Being a World Champion poker player with the grapes to stand up to washed-up jock, faux drunkards menacing high-limit games, I think you may just be the ideal candidate.

If you'd like to apply for the job, please email me at edmiller@notedpokerauthority.com.

Re: Wynn 150-300 -- I hate limit hold\'em
 

9.5/10
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]