you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero calls, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB caps</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (12 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Alright, so maybe you don't like the preflop limp, and the flop 3-bet might have been a bit much, though I like it a lot.
turn - I love it, but the 3-bet freaks me out, could he have AdKd? I guess I shoulda capped it, although it's possible one of the other two has K9....

Anyway, I figure that if I'm not beat already, the river card probably kills me if it's an A,K,Q,J,T,9, any [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and quite likely any [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. So even if I'm ahead, I may have as few as 15 "outs" here.

on to the results:
River: (24 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG calls, Hero folds, SB calls.

Final Pot: 30 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has Ad Js (straight, ace high).
BB has Qs Ac (straight, ace high).
UTG has Ah 5d (straight, ace high).
Outcome: SB wins 10 BB. BB wins 10 BB. UTG wins 10 BB. </font>

Ha.
Before you go sqwaking at me for posting a bad beat, let me say that the result of this hand actually had me smiling, prolly because I was running nicely otherwise, and that I knew I was at the right table. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

I'm curious about the preflop call. Is this standard? Seems pretty bad to me.

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

Chalk it up to trying to loosen myself up. I've been playing around 20/15, trying to work my way up to something like 25/17.
Maybe this isn't the right spot to do it...

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious about the preflop call. Is this standard? Seems pretty bad to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. In SH, you really have to punish openlimpers if you have anything like a playable hand. You need to fold or raise here; calling is a distant third best. For me, 98 just doesn't have enough oomph to pull it off.

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious about the preflop call. Is this standard? Seems pretty bad to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. In SH, you really have to punish openlimpers if you have anything like a playable hand. You need to fold or raise here; calling is a distant third best. For me, 98 just doesn't have enough oomph to pull it off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I fold it, but I can see limping 9T and definitely JT. It depends a bit on the table. If it's a passive table, limping 89 can work fine. You really don't want to raise with it since you're working implied odds with the hand anyway. There's no way you're ahead with 89 given the UTG limp and 2 random hands behind you. And given the UTG limper, there's almost no way you're getting HU as any loose BB, or even SB, player is almost certainly calling with those pot odds (yea, they don't calculate them, but once a couple people are in the BB never seems to fold).

A raise just sweetens it for whoever has the best hand.

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

Fold pre-flop.

I don't like the flop 3-bet. AK is a very likely hand for one of your opponents to hold so you really can't love a Q that much. Add onto that the possible flush draw against you and your equity doesn't look all that great. You're not raising for value and you don't benefit from shutting anyone out of the pot. Just call.

Turn looks fine. Why would you want to cap?

River fine.

Why are you so happy about this table? I like action too, but, apart from UTG, these guys didn't play all that badly. BB's turn 3-bet is bad, but with TPTK + gutshot to the nut straight and several trapped opponents it's not like he's giving you money here.

/mc

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

nothing to be curious about, that is a bad call. There is almost no justification and if Hero wants to loosen up - this is not the hand to do it with.

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold pre-flop.

I don't like the flop 3-bet. AK is a very likely hand for one of your opponents to hold so you really can't love a Q that much. Add onto that the possible flush draw against you and your equity doesn't look all that great. You're not raising for value and you don't benefit from shutting anyone out of the pot. Just call.

Turn looks fine. Why would you want to cap?

River fine.

Why are you so happy about this table? I like action too, but, apart from UTG, these guys didn't play all that badly. BB's turn 3-bet is bad, but with TPTK + gutshot to the nut straight and several trapped opponents it's not like he's giving you money here.

/mc

[/ QUOTE ]

SB calling 2 cold on the turn with 2nd pair + gutshot for an almost certain split isn't that bad? Not to mention that he flat called the river, closing the action, with the nuts.

BB overplayed his hand huge both on the flop and the turn, and I'd say he is giving me money - he's got to be behind and the only card he likes is another Q or a K for a split. UTG is a monster calling station, as is SB. It doesn't get much better than that.

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

Ok, they're worse than I thought.

/mc

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

Still, it's a little weird to be crowing about your opponent's mistakes when you made some questionable plays yourself.

/mc

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Still, it's a little weird to be crowing about your opponent's mistakes when you made some questionable plays yourself.

/mc

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhhh, I'm not getting sucked into this. I didn't make "some" questionable plays, I made one questionable/incorrect call, which I mention right up front. I'm not "crowing" about their mistakes, just pointing them out after you suggested that they didn't play that badly.
I just thought it was funny that all three of them put in 3 bets on the turn when it was reasonably certain that they were drawing for a chop or at best a 2-outer. Hell, I put "LC" right there in the header.
I'm sorry if it wasn't entertaining.
I'll try to do better in the future. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Still, it's a little weird to be crowing about your opponent's mistakes when you made some questionable plays yourself.

/mc

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhhh, I'm not getting sucked into this. I didn't make "some" questionable plays, I made one questionable/incorrect call, which I mention right up front. I'm not "crowing" about their mistakes, just pointing them out after you suggested that they didn't play that badly.
I just thought it was funny that all three of them put in 3 bets on the turn when it was reasonably certain that they were drawing for a chop or at best a 2-outer. Hell, I put "LC" right there in the header.
I'm sorry if it wasn't entertaining.
I'll try to do better in the future. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Your flop 3-bet is also very questionable. You've got the low end of an OESD on a 2flush board. Your awesome draw isn't awesome nearly as much as you think.

Rob

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't make "some" questionable plays, I made one questionable/incorrect call...

[/ QUOTE ]

The flop 3-bet is questionable.


[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry if it wasn't entertaining.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm enjoying this, though!

/mc

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

I still like the 3-bet.
totally disguises my hand if I hit, might get me a free card if I don't, helps to define BB's hand, 2 additional callers coming along for the ride, I've got position....

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

I opened this thread expecting to see something like this:
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, Button calls.

River: (7 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Results below:
Hero has 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (two pair, aces and eights).
UTG has A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (two pair, aces and eights).
Button has T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (two pair, aces and eights).
Outcome: UTG wins 10 BB.

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I still like the 3-bet.
totally disguises my hand if I hit, might get me a free card if I don't, helps to define BB's hand, 2 additional callers coming along for the ride, I've got position....

[/ QUOTE ]

It's bad dude. Your outs are tainted. J's are certainly tainted. Diamonds are tainted. There are plenty of redraws on this board -- a hand like KQ is very plausible. You're not getting a free card on this board very often at all. Your equity is not good with the pot being 4-handed (welcome to why we don't play 98o in this situation when we can avoid it).

Here's your equity if BB has something like: an overpair, a set, top pair, or a gutshot with overcards (AQ/AK), SB has a few potential diamond draws, top pair, two pair, a straight draw, and if UTG has completely random suited cards.

Hand 1: 35.7171 % 34.83% 00.93% { TT+, AJs+, KQs, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 28.8821 % 26.27% 02.64% { Ad4d, KJs, QJs, JTs, 9d4d, 7d3d, KJo+, QJo, JTo, T9o, 98o }
Hand 3: 16.7037 % 16.07% 00.65% { A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s }
Hand 4: 18.6971 % 16.72% 02.00% { 9c8h }

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I still like the 3-bet.
totally disguises my hand if I hit, might get me a free card if I don't, helps to define BB's hand, 2 additional callers coming along for the ride, I've got position....

[/ QUOTE ]

You're listing a bunch of pros but ignoring the cons.

Re. hand disguise, the danger of you making your hand and not getting paid off is very small. The danger of you making your hand and losing is much larger. Also 2-card straights are already hard to see, the extra camouflage isn't worth the price.

The possibility of a free card is real, but so is the possibility of a cap behind you, meaning that a lot of times instead of saving half a big bet, you are paying an extra big bet.

Also, these two ideas are somewhat contradictory. If you do hit a 7 you don't want it checked to you, you'd rather have a bet in front of you to raise.

/mc

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

Ok, I give up.
Other than to say that it's a little meaningless to put ranges on their hands after the fact, and that I don't need to have even 25% equity on the flop to make raising correct, and that given their actual holdings I had 27% equity on the flop.

Yeah, I suck, but I just can't let go (of this thread that I totally regret posting now, lol).

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I give up.
Other than to say that it's a little meaningless to put ranges on their hands after the fact, and that I don't need to have even 25% equity on the flop to make raising correct, and that given their actual holdings I had 27% equity on the flop.

Yeah, I suck, but I just can't let go (of this thread that I totally regret posting now, lol).

[/ QUOTE ]

1) You *do* need 25% equity on the flop to make raising correct in terms of EV.

2) It's *very* important to try to put your opponents on a range of hands; what does SB bet out into this field with? What will BB raise, given that range?

Rob

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I give up.
Other than to say that it's a little meaningless to put ranges on their hands after the fact,

[/ QUOTE ]

???


[ QUOTE ]
and that I don't need to have even 25% equity on the flop to make raising correct, and that given their actual holdings I had 27% equity on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that's meaningless.


[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I suck, but I just can't let go (of this thread that I totally regret posting now, lol).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a dojo. We're all here to learn. When people attack your play with everything they've got it's a sign of respect.

/mc

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

I've never had a hand posted that totally mystified me the way this one does. Every single line of action made me go "huh" and the explanation made me simply mouth the word "what?!" At first I thought this was one of those hands where the "hero" is the other player, and we all get tricked into thinking that the poster condones 3 betting with the sucker end of a very tainted straight draw in a 4 way capped pot. Now I'm just confused.

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I suck, but I just can't let go (of this thread that I totally regret posting now, lol).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a dojo. We're all here to learn. When people attack your play with everything they've got it's a sign of respect.

[/ QUOTE ]
This should be carved in stone.

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) You *do* need 25% equity on the flop to make raising correct in terms of EV.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure about this? Assuming I'm going to have to show down the best hand, I think raising with less than 25% equity can be +EV if it:
1) thins the field
2) allows me to extract more bets when I do make the best hand by a- disguising my hand and b- making the pot big enough to induce donks to call more bets on the turn drawing super slim and/or make crying calls on the river.
3) allows me to take a free card on the turn.

Obviously this raise didn't accomplish (1) or (3), and probably not (2a) either, given the opposition.

You wouldn't suggest that you need 50% equity to bet the flop in position HU, why is this any different?

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I still like the 3-bet.
totally disguises my hand if I hit

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a very good reason that nobody who sees you 3-bet the flop will put you on the hand that you have. Think about why that might be.

Guy.

Re: you know you\'re at the right table when....(LC)
 

[ QUOTE ]
You wouldn't suggest that you need 50% equity to bet the flop in position HU, why is this any different?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd put your fold equity at about 0% here