Playing against friends
 

Hey guys, I've been lurking around here for a while now, and after last night I finally decided to post.
I play at least twice a week with my best friends. Pretty small stakes (usually $5-$10 buy in), but the game is very loose and the pot usually gets close to $100 for 5 or 6. The same group of 5-6 people play every single time. All of them play for fun, and have the mentality that poker is a game of pure luck. On the other hand, I take poker seriously. I play a lot online, at other live games, and frequently read new books to try to improve my game. We have been playing for about a year now, and the end results have been basically the same. I've won every time we've played except for twice, one of them being last night. I'm not particularly proud of winning so much against them, as none of them take the game seriously at all. However, last night something different happened that is making me reevaluate my stance on playing with them.
We'd been playing for about 2 hours and I was down around $1. I really hadn't been catching any cards and I looked down at A7s in the BB. My buddy was down to less than $1, and he was the only other person in. Knowing how loose he plays (he admits he'll play anything suited or connecting) I put him all in. He instantly called with 54o. Needless to say he catches not only a 5, but a 4 as well. It didn't bother me that he made that call, because that is exactly the type of hand I want somebody to call an all in with when I have A7s. Of course I had to listen to him talk about "how well he played his 54o." I brushed it off and didn't make a big deal out of it because this guy never wins, so in a way I was happy for him. An hour later I'm still at $4. With people buying in multiple times, the average stack is about $10-12. I'm the shortstack by a long ways, even though I'm the only person who didn't buy in again. I get TT on the button and move all in. To my surprise both blinds call me. At first I didn't like it, but when they flipped over their cards I was happy. KJo and QJo, and it looked fairly good that I'd triple up. Along with the theme of last night, a Q comes on the river. Again, I'm not that pissed because frankly I want KJo and QJo calling me when I have TT. There are only 8 outs they can catch when they both call me. I'll take that situation any day. I buy back in, which was probably a mistake. For an hour straight, I hear about how well both of them played their cards against me, and how they deserved to win. It finally struck me, they were rooting for me to lose. They were chriping nonstop about how good they were playing, asking me why I wasn't winning and where my skill was now, even going so far as to take a picture of one of their chipstacks. It got bad enough that I eventually got up and left my chips on the table, and left. Away from the table these guys are my best friends. But at the table, I can't stand them. Its to the point where I think I might not play with them anymore. I don't want poker to ruin our friendship. Ultimately, I think that it won't work, being a serious poker player and playing against friends who do it for fun. Have you guys ever encountered the same situation? What did you do? Thanks for hearing me out on my first rant.

Re: Playing against friends
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hey guys, I've been lurking around here for a while now, and after last night I finally decided to post.
I play at least twice a week with my best friends. Pretty small stakes (usually $5-$10 buy in), but the game is very loose and the pot usually gets close to $100 for 5 or 6. The same group of 5-6 people play every single time. All of them play for fun, and have the mentality that poker is a game of pure luck. On the other hand, I take poker seriously. I play a lot online, at other live games, and frequently read new books to try to improve my game. We have been playing for about a year now, and the end results have been basically the same. I've won every time we've played except for twice, one of them being last night. I'm not particularly proud of winning so much against them, as none of them take the game seriously at all. However, last night something different happened that is making me reevaluate my stance on playing with them.
We'd been playing for about 2 hours and I was down around $1. I really hadn't been catching any cards and I looked down at A7s in the BB. My buddy was down to less than $1, and he was the only other person in. Knowing how loose he plays (he admits he'll play anything suited or connecting) I put him all in. He instantly called with 54o. Needless to say he catches not only a 5, but a 4 as well. It didn't bother me that he made that call, because that is exactly the type of hand I want somebody to call an all in with when I have A7s. Of course I had to listen to him talk about "how well he played his 54o." I brushed it off and didn't make a big deal out of it because this guy never wins, so in a way I was happy for him. An hour later I'm still at $4. With people buying in multiple times, the average stack is about $10-12. I'm the shortstack by a long ways, even though I'm the only person who didn't buy in again. I get TT on the button and move all in. To my surprise both blinds call me. At first I didn't like it, but when they flipped over their cards I was happy. KJo and QJo, and it looked fairly good that I'd triple up. Along with the theme of last night, a Q comes on the river. Again, I'm not that pissed because frankly I want KJo and QJo calling me when I have TT. There are only 8 outs they can catch when they both call me. I'll take that situation any day. I buy back in, which was probably a mistake. For an hour straight, I hear about how well both of them played their cards against me, and how they deserved to win. It finally struck me, they were rooting for me to lose. They were chriping nonstop about how good they were playing, asking me why I wasn't winning and where my skill was now, even going so far as to take a picture of one of their chipstacks. It got bad enough that I eventually got up and left my chips on the table, and left. Away from the table these guys are my best friends. But at the table, I can't stand them. Its to the point where I think I might not play with them anymore. I don't want poker to ruin our friendship. Ultimately, I think that it won't work, being a serious poker player and playing against friends who do it for fun. Have you guys ever encountered the same situation? What did you do? Thanks for hearing me out on my first rant.

[/ QUOTE ]wow what are the blinds lol multiple 100$ pots, i wish i could play lol. your friends sound like douchebags especially if they took pictures of their stacks and mocked you. i woulkd try and find a new game

Re: Playing against friends
 

I seriously don't understand what's wrong with people like you.

Is it really that hard to disassociate playing serious poker and tossing around a few bucks with your friends? I hope to god you don't sit there and calculate pot odds and implied odds and [censored] during this game, because it's supposed to be fun.

And of course they want you to lose, probably because you take an attitude that you are better then them, wether you know it or not, and they want to knock you off.

also, hit the goddamn enter key once and a while.

Re: Playing against friends
 

[ QUOTE ]
I seriously don't understand what's wrong with people like you.

Is it really that hard to disassociate playing serious poker and tossing around a few bucks with your friends? I hope to god you don't sit there and calculate pot odds and implied odds and [censored] during this game, because it's supposed to be fun.

And of course they want you to lose, probably because you take an attitude that you are better then them, wether you know it or not, and they want to knock you off.

also, hit the goddamn enter key once and a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you telling me that if you could get into a game that was so loose that its almost guaranteed that you'd make a minimum of 10 times your buy in in less than 3 hours, you wouldn't jump on that opportunity? Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm sure the majority of people here would love to play in a game like this, regardless of who its against. This game alone has made it possible for me to not get a job this summer. I don't know about you, but I'd rather play 8 hours of poker in a week than go do manual labor for 20.

Re: Playing against friends
 

he means the total pot is $100... not every single pot... the total of everybody's buy-in adds up to $100


aka there is $100 to be won if 1 person gets all the chips


to OP: play for fun, like your friends are. if you cant not take it seriously, dont play

Re: Playing against friends
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I seriously don't understand what's wrong with people like you.

Is it really that hard to disassociate playing serious poker and tossing around a few bucks with your friends? I hope to god you don't sit there and calculate pot odds and implied odds and [censored] during this game, because it's supposed to be fun.

And of course they want you to lose, probably because you take an attitude that you are better then them, wether you know it or not, and they want to knock you off.

also, hit the goddamn enter key once and a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you telling me that if you could get into a game that was so loose that its almost guaranteed that you'd make a minimum of 10 times your buy in in less than 3 hours, you wouldn't jump on that opportunity? Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm sure the majority of people here would love to play in a game like this, regardless of who its against. This game alone has made it possible for me to not get a job this summer. I don't know about you, but I'd rather play 8 hours of poker in a week than go do manual labor for 20.

[/ QUOTE ]

And THIS IS EXACTLY why they want to bust your stack...

you come off as not wanting to have fun, but just wanting to take their money. If you can't seperate fun from serious poker play, then don't play with them.

And yes, I play in a weekly (weakly) game with friends who are poor players, but I don't stomp on them because it's just not fun for me. If your $10 means that much to you, that you are willing to piss off your friends, go for it dude, but don't complain when they want to bust your stack.

Re: Playing against friends
 

so ur proud of the fact that u dont need a summer job because u take advantage of ur friends?

...dude, ur a [cencored] Ba$tard

Re: Playing against friends
 

You are having trouble seperating your 'fun' game from your serious game. I play in a weekly game of dealer's choice (same of the choices include pass the trash, baseball, guts, etc.) with my neighbors. One night the host asks if we want to play a Hold'em Tourney. Everyone agrees (and knows that I am the only one in the group who plays on line). I crushed everyone, there were some hurt feelings and I doubt we will ever play a tournament again. Their bad play was magnified when it appeared that I always had the winning hand. They didn't stop to consider that I only saw 25% of the flops to their 90%+.

I have decided that the $20-$40 per week playing trash games is entertainment and I don't measure how much fun I had by the size of my bankroll. Some weeks I win, other I lose to 5 wild cards, but I always have fun. I suggest you adopt a similar approach since these guys are your best friends.

Also, if you are winning consistently why be thin-skinned after a bad beat and a horse race hand? Laugh it off, you playing with their money!

Re: Playing against friends
 

every year a bunch of us old college buddies go on a labor day weekend trip. one guy plays online, and takes things more seriously than the rest. however, he's able to get away from that form of thinking when we all play that weekend.

last year i cracked his AA with JJ to win a mini-tourney. his reaction was, "damn, i knew to only play AA against you if they were suited."

the point is to echo what others have said on this thread. if you see your close friends as nothing more than you see online donkeys, then you shouldn't play with them.

Re: Playing against friends
 

They're playing for fun. If you can't do the same, find another game.

Re: Playing against friends
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hope to god you don't sit there and calculate pot odds and implied odds and [censored] during this game, because it's supposed to be fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll defend the guy on this point, for some people playing good poker is fun. I picked up the game recently and enjoy reading the books and learning to play well. And that includes using those skills in friendly games with my friends. This is largely because this is my only opportunity to play real money games with real people.

On the other hand I don't get upset about bad beats (the original poster states that this isn't what got him upset), or act like I am taking it seriously.

But, leaving a game upset because you're getting made fun of is just plain stupid. That's what friends do, make fun of each other (sounds like these friends finally got the perfect opportunity to give this guy sh** for playing way too seriously). And there is no better way to guarantee being the butt of all jokes for the next year then to do what this guy did.

My advice for his friends. Next time he shows up to the game bring shades and as soon as the first hand is dealt, put them on in unison.

If I were him I would do the same thing, show up to the next game and wear shades, and laugh at yourself for doing it. Shows you know you were taking yourself too seriously and can make fun of yourself.

Two real suggestions:

Take some time to teach your friends to play good poker (if they want to) so you can have some real fun playing competitive poker (if you really don't care about the money).

Play dealers choice games. I find it hard to "turn off" my game during NLHE. I love playing dealers choice every now and again to keep it fun.

My home game is set up as a NLHE tournament, and as soon as four go out a dealers choice table starts.

Re: Playing against friends
 

man im glad i dont have freinds like you
me and my freinds play all the time and i always win but i dont care it would be easy for me to lose because theyre always pushing it
oh well, i sugjest you get a life i mean they are your best freinds [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Playing against friends
 

I couldn't read most of the OP's post, because it wasn't formatted and hurt my eyes. But it seems like most of you are being a bit too hard on him.

Obviously there is a fine line when playing in home games with friends, but one shouldn't be expected not to care about the actual play or who wins. Not really caring about those things would ruin the fun of playing the game for me. If that was the case, I would rather just play something else with friends.

For me, there would be no point in playing poker at all if you weren't actually trying to play decently and win. Don't take it too seriously, though. It seems like that is exactly what the OP was doing.

At the end of the day, those types of games are about having fun. Taking things too seriously ruins a lot of the amusement. But not caring at all would ruin the fun of poker, too. As I said, it's always a fine line.

Re: Playing against friends
 

I disagree. If I want to play serious cards, I go to a casino or fire up an internet room. The thought of playing serious poker with my friends is a joke. His friends are obviously the same way, and he is playing a different game then them.

It's like he's there to literally make money, if I were his friends, I wouldn't play with him.

Re: Playing against friends
 

[ QUOTE ]
The thought of playing serious poker with my friends is a joke.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, that's the thing... what do you define as 'serious poker?' Where is the line drawn? Because if we're just throwing money around and not even playing the game, why bother? It's fun to be competitive. Most everyone I've ever been friends with would agree with that.

It's a fine line because playing aimlessly ruins the game of poker. You might as well all sit around a table and play Go Fish for money if that's all the game is about to you.

[ QUOTE ]
It's like he's there to literally make money

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a bit different. Obviously if you just are trying to make money off your friends, the game isn't really about 'fun' to you. But here we come to that fine line business again. You probably shouldn't be seriously trying to make money off your friends, but without some actual competition, the game is pretty damn boring.

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mind.

Re: Playing against friends
 

[ QUOTE ]
Take some time to teach your friends to play good poker (if they want to) so you can have some real fun playing competitive poker (if you really don't care about the money).

[/ QUOTE ]

I've recently found myself in the same situation as the OP, but slightly different and slightly worse. I've just become part of a semi-regular game -- two guys (acquaintances of my friends) who play for fun and comraderie, two good friends who are really hooked on the game but are still learning, and me. The first 2 games I sat in, I took everything -- almost $200 total between both games (not huge dough, but sizeable for a $10 buy-in).

I've won more than a few hands on the turn/river because I stayed in on drawing hands due to pot odds. (Yes, I'm a douche bag -- I calc pot odds in a $10 home game.) I've sucked in drawing hands with big pocket pairs after hitting the set on the flop. I've slow-played aces, and I've bluffed guys off of pots with crap. I do all this because 1) I'm trying to be a solid player, and 2) it's all part of the game. I want to improve my play and move up in stakes, and if I can't get it straight in a relaxed, low-pressure environment, how the hell can I do it when there's big money in the pot?

I take the game seriously everytime I play, whether it's a $2 SNG online, a $10 buy-in NLHE tourney, or a dealers' choice drunkfest. I do so because I believe you can have fun and still play well. I also have no problem taking money from my friends. Once the money's in the pot, it's up for grabs. If you don't want me trying to take it, don't put it in. I think there's 2 different ways to "care about the cash". You can care because you are competitive and, obviously, taking the cash means you're doing well. You can also care because you need to win to buy groceries or pay bills. Like the saying goes, "I hope I break even -- I could really use the cash." If you care like this, something's wrong.

However, archcity's right on target. The absolute best way to approach this situation is to take an active role in educating your friends on the finer points of the game, as long as they wish to be educated. (Some guys really only want to socialize and have a few pops, and God bless them for it. You don't want to force it on anyone.) I loaned my copy of "Harrington on Hold 'Em, Vol. 1" to the 2 guys hooked on the game and just starting out, and anyone else I play with can have it if they want it. I'm more than happy to explain my thinking to anyone at the table after the hand is over.

In the long run, having strong opponents in the game will help you improve your game, too. You won't have any misgivings about winning because you'll know you're all on equal footing. Your friends will have more fun because they're games will improve, and you'll end up with a solid regular game.

Sorry this ran so long. . .just my $0.02. Take it as you like, but I hope I made some sense.

Re: Playing against friends
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad, because this forum would suck if everyone got pissed off when they disagreed with something.

But seriously, the same group of guys I play with, we play serious games and we play social games on sundays. If it's a sunday, we know it's just for fun, and we don't even break out the chips, just use quarters and $1 bills. We borrow money off each other to play, and none of that money really ever goes away from the game, there is just a steady $100 or so that stays between us in the game, everyone has their own jars of money they bring, and everyone leaves with their jars.

When we break the chips out on saturdays, it's all business, not much talking, not much socializing, just playing.

It sounds like his friends are more similar to our sunday games, and I think he needs to realize that perhaps his friends don't appreciate when he takes it too seriously

Re: Playing against friends
 

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. If I want to play serious cards, I go to a casino or fire up an internet room.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious... for those who say they dial it back in a home game with friends, how exactly do you change your game?

Looser opening hands seems about the only change you can make without actually playing "wrong". Do you actually go as far as making bad calls? Intentionally giving your money away can't be fun no matter how nice you are trying to be to your friends.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I really am curious.

Re: Playing against friends
 

After thinking about it today, I realize that I should separate between serious games and friend games. However, the problem is this is the only consistant live game I can play in. If I had other games that I could play in readily, I wouldn't take this as seriously. But my reasoning behind playing at my best in this game is so that I keep a decent live game going.

I do realize that I sound like somewhat of an ass. After re-reading my original post, I don't blame some of you for jumping on me. I haven't been playing poker for very long, just about a year. But I love the game and I'm trying my best to improve as much as I can and become a solid player. It seems like if I play in my only regular live game just for fun, I'd ultimately be losing out and hurting my game.

I talked with some of my friends today (actually played heads up with one of them), and what he had to say changed my opinion of it. He told me that last night he was just excited to be beating me, because he thinks that I'm a lot better than him. As stupid as it sounds, that made me realize more of where he is coming from. Thanks for the advice guys.

Re: Playing against friends
 

[ QUOTE ]

I talked with some of my friends today (actually played heads up with one of them), and what he had to say changed my opinion of it. He told me that last night he was just excited to be beating me, because he thinks that I'm a lot better than him. As stupid as it sounds, that made me realize more of where he is coming from. Thanks for the advice guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this was basically my point from the beginning. It's like when you play basketball, and it's a bunch of your pathetic friends and then the one kid that played varsity and he just whoops on everyone when you are just trying to play a pick up game. Everyone would love to beat him, but usually they just don't enjoy playing with him.

As far as how I play differently in our fun games, well, we basically we play very loose, get some wild hands, but more or less just keep the conversation rolling, don't pay as much attention to the cards as each other.

Re: Playing against friends
 

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1126221
pokenum -h ah 7h - 5c 4d
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ah 7h 1102353 64.38 601622 35.14 8329 0.49 0.646
5c 4d 601622 35.14 1102353 64.38 8329 0.49 0.354


http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1126223
pokenum -h kh jd - qs jc - ts td
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Jd Kh 460944 33.63 886688 64.69 23122 1.69 0.344
Qs Jc 300828 21.95 1046804 76.37 23122 1.69 0.227
Ts Td 585860 42.74 780477 56.94 4417 0.32 0.428

Re: Playing against friends
 

" It got bad enough that I eventually got up and left my chips on the table, and left. Away from the table these guys are my best friends. But at the table, I can't stand them. Its to the point where I think I might not play with them anymore. I don't want poker to ruin our friendship"

Razzing each other while playing any game is half the fun of playing with friends. Now, if you can't handle it, maybe YOU are the one who has an issue to address?

Re: Playing against friends
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. If I want to play serious cards, I go to a casino or fire up an internet room.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious... for those who say they dial it back in a home game with friends, how exactly do you change your game?

Looser opening hands seems about the only change you can make without actually playing "wrong". Do you actually go as far as making bad calls? Intentionally giving your money away can't be fun no matter how nice you are trying to be to your friends.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I really am curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Arch, I know what you mean about turning your game on and off. To me it's impossible. My 'A' game exists because of my winning attitude towards poker. I feel like it would be really hard for professional sports players to turn off their instincts when playing for fun. There are just certain things that I have trained myself to do when playing poker that it feels really unnatural to do anything else. Switching to those ridiculous wild card games definately increases the luck factor to a degree that you just can't play well no matter how hard you try, so it's more likely that you'll have fun seeing how many times you can hit a royal flush and still lose to five deuces.

I'm fortunate enough to have a variety of games in which to play; however, I just don't play with my friends anymore. I've convinced them that there are better things to than play poker when we chill.

If you can't turn off your instincts, this is a good sign for your poker game, and also a sign that you should stop playing recreationally if it's not fun for you or your friends when you play. Just remember that a lot of rich flounders would love to say they sat with the best in the world and are more than willing to pay the price.

Re: Playing against friends
 

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like it would be really hard for professional sports players to turn off their instincts when playing for fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't be serious [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] Do you honestly believe that Shaq would dunk over a bunch of handicapped kids in a charity game because he "can't turn it off"? It is probably a relief (and joy) for him to play for fun with no pressure.

That is what home games are for most people. Sorry, I don't see how a couple of hours a week playing a home game with your buddies is going to mess up your 'A' game.

Re: Playing against friends
 

this is exactly how I view it...

well, save the fact that I don't consider my game like shaqs...

and also my friends aren't handicapped, but, yeah.

Re: Playing against friends
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I feel like it would be really hard for professional sports players to turn off their instincts when playing for fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't be serious [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] Do you honestly believe that Shaq would dunk over a bunch of handicapped kids in a charity game because he "can't turn it off"? It is probably a relief (and joy) for him to play for fun with no pressure.

That is what home games are for most people. Sorry, I don't see how a couple of hours a week playing a home game with your buddies is going to mess up your 'A' game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there's a difference between instinctive play and "showboating". The dunking example would be showboating and isn't necessary for him to play. But it would be really hard for a pro basketball player to screw up the basics like sinking baskets and dribbling the ball. These are the kind of skills you can't turn off.

Re: Playing against friends
 

Shaq probably takes 3-pointers in charity games, but I don't recall seeing him take in an NBA game during crunch time, so he is ignoring some of the fundamentals. I'm not picking a fight or trying to hijack the thread (sorry OP), but you still haven't given any evidence that playing in a wild home game will have a detriment to your overall A game. Of course you don't need to turn off your natural instincts when you play, the only difference in a friendly home game is do you need check raise the weakest player at the table who has rebought 2 times just to show your superior skill? In a casino or non-friendly game go for it, but a home game with friends is supposed to be fun and friendly. JMHO. Good luck to you.

Re: Playing against friends
 

I agree with you, 4 2, about playing for fun means playing for fun. To me, making correct decisions is more of a thrill than the way I used to play poker, hoping to get lucky with no regard for proper odds. I suppose I've taken the whole "kitchen table game" spirit out of poker. If I'm not playing well, I'm not really having fun. I don't play poker with my friends anymore; we now go out and do other things when we chill with each other.

I generally treat all gambling the same regardless of the stakes. I've always been smart (or so I think) about my investments, whether it be to earn $10 or $1000.

When it comes to poker, all I want to do is play my top game. That's where the thrill comes in. I suppose it's a lot like golf. If you're playing with your friends, you would still try to play your best game. If you're playing best ball for money, you would still try to play your best game. If you continuously outshoot your 3 Amigos and they keep wanting to play for money, I don't see any harm in doing so. If you keep beating them and trying to get them to bet you money, then that's probably crossing the line.

PS. I hadn't played with my friends for about 3 years. Eventually they started to get better after hitting the online scene. We now play once in a while... for "honour" (read: cash).

Re: Playing against friends
 

Here, I got you a gift:




































You can use this to turn your posts into paragraphs so that they are readable.

Re: Playing against friends
 

Gosh!

Rip this guy apart on his first post? gimmie a break.

What you describe is something that happens in almost every poker game. People play for different reasons. Some play for the gamble. Some play for the glory of going all-in with 27 and sucking out on AA, Some play for the social aspect. And some play the game like a chess match.

The problem happens when the drunken majoo meets the chess player at the table. The magoo wants to play for the fun of it and the chess player is too serious about the game, the pot odds, the outs, etc that it is no longer fun for the magoo to play.

If you are the best player at the table you should show the fish a good time. Advertize your bluffs, laugh, goof around, pertent to drink like a rock star, fold QJ to a big all-in raise and for gods sake don't show that laydown.

Jdoe

Re: Playing against friends
 

hey, poker is poker.Money is money. doesnt matter where it comes from. i play at a casino, and a weekly home game($1/2NL)single pots average $150-$300 as large as $1k. i consider some the guys i play with friends but i dont mind for a second when i bust some of them.if you dont want to lose no matter how much you shouldnt play. i would bust my grandmother if she were sitting there. it is unethical to play correctly against someone at the table then softplay friends or a relative. i know this sounds harsh, i expect some flamming, but if you play serious poker thats the way it is.

Re: Playing against friends
 

This is my stance as well.

Re: Playing against friends
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you, 4 2, about playing for fun means playing for fun. To me, making correct decisions is more of a thrill than the way I used to play poker, hoping to get lucky with no regard for proper odds. I suppose I've taken the whole "kitchen table game" spirit out of poker. If I'm not playing well, I'm not really having fun. I don't play poker with my friends anymore; we now go out and do other things when we chill with each other.

I generally treat all gambling the same regardless of the stakes. I've always been smart (or so I think) about my investments, whether it be to earn $10 or $1000.

When it comes to poker, all I want to do is play my top game. That's where the thrill comes in. I suppose it's a lot like golf. If you're playing with your friends, you would still try to play your best game. If you're playing best ball for money, you would still try to play your best game. If you continuously outshoot your 3 Amigos and they keep wanting to play for money, I don't see any harm in doing so. If you keep beating them and trying to get them to bet you money, then that's probably crossing the line.

PS. I hadn't played with my friends for about 3 years. Eventually they started to get better after hitting the online scene. We now play once in a while... for "honour" (read: cash).

[/ QUOTE ]

I see where you are coming from and agree with you.

Re: Playing against friends
 

I think my story might be relevant. If not, thanks for letting me ramble.

Last summer I watched the reruns of the 2003 WSOP before the 2004 episodes started. I had seen them before, but didn't pay close attention, like the way one watches World Strongest Man competitions. (No offense, strongmen) I loved the way Sammy Farha carried himself, and the subtle moves of Dan Harrington. And I hated Moneymaker's lucky draws.

I played a few home games - 5-7 person SNGs, and donned my sunglasses and Hold'Em T shirt. It was mainly about the glamour, and I enjoyed myself. Also, I didnt know the difference between AQ and A7. I marveled at a story my friend told me about a hand in which he "knew" the guy was bluffing and called him down with bottom pair. At this point, I was hooked, but not for the money.

I went to college as a freshman in September, and sat down with some fish the first night. Lost with QQ to KK, and felt good about myself. Then, I sat down with a bunch of experience players for a $10, 14 person 2 table tournament. I knocked out the first 3 players at my table and acted very cool. I had a large stack, and one guy, who looked like he was playing to be with the guys, gunned for me. He took me for 75% of my stack, and I went to the final table as a short stack. I was dubbed "Broken Spirits" for the way I was crushed at losing the big stack. This guy turned out to be the most experienced player at the table. He took me for about $200 first semester, if you count tournament buy ins that he knocked me out of. I hated getting in hands with him, but loved it at the same time because I was dying to learn something from it.

Learn I did. With the help of another friend that taught me the 2+2 reality of poker, I have become a good player. I need help in some areas before I can become an excellent player, but I do well. My group of friends learned to play very well, because getting games together in a dorm is so easy.

Now that I am home, I've been playing with the same group as last summer. Only I am the only one who is educated at all in poker strategy. I play, and win, at cash games, but others don't hate me. I let them have their wild hands and stay out of it. I regularly cash out 2-3 times the original buy in in profit, and they seem to think I am a quiet killer, always magically building a large stack while staying out of the spotlight. In addition, my friends turn to me for rules and advice. What I enjoy most out of the games is not the money, but trying to help my friends grow as players. Two guys think I am stupid for trying to incorporate math, but I don't argue. I am trying to make the games better, and the only way to do that is to show them how their styles will consistently lose them money. My goal is to make it a challenge.

It's late and I just gave a very long winded explaination of why I enjoy my games. I love the financial aspect of poker, but I love the friendly atmosphere and glamour more. I didn't learn from playing fish, I learned from experienced players who regularly handed my ass to me. I don't think avoiding poker is the best method. In your case, I would say lighten up a bit, educate yourself more (your betting strategy seems a bit off), and become the dominant figure at the table. By holding to my game and avoiding the shitty or marginal hands, I have avoided bad beats for the most part. This is important, because bad beats can ruin your impression of your friends and ruin your desire to play. If you find a way to become a leader at your table, you can enjoy the games. Don't let them get to you, and with my friends, I find that even though some don't like my use of odds, I do get respect. It's ok for players to play their own game, but when you are in the hand, you should control the game.

Just enjoy yourself and remember why you decided to learn poker in the first place. Try to bring some of that back to the table.

Good luck.

Re: Playing against friends
 

I play with a bunch of friends who are "below average" players, and myself and another who are good players.

I play very loose and just kinda crazy while playing in my game when against most players, but against the other who really knows what hes doing like I do, we get very competetive.

I think if your playing in a little fun game with your friends, the actual way you play your cards shouldn't be some huge priority. Having fun, and ensuring the game remains fun, should be at top. Since its your only live play, watch for some tells, correct your own tells rather than worrying about winning money.

Re: Playing against friends
 

I have played tourneys like that even some of my family games are like that. I normally win or place in the money and it never seems to be a problem with them. When I win a hand, I say something like “that was luck” or “ I thought you had me”. I never gloat or make a bid deal out of winning hands or money. I always take the time to complement other good play or draw even if they sucked out on me. In fact, if I am a better player then they are then I should get sucked out on more often because I will be in with the better hand. When playing this type of game they see more flops, call, and raise in ridiculous situations. They really like going to the river so they just draw into hands. Let them have fun and just enjoy. Its also good to play a few more hands with junk cards if it is cheap even I you lose. Although I must admit, I am not fond of losing. Bottom-line, be nice, complement, be humble, join in and have fun, then take home the money. Always leave them smiling

Re: Playing against friends
 

This post has some sage advice. Don't take it so seriously that you come off as a pompous ass, and smile and relax when they rib you. I was known for quoting the odds on everything at my home game, and pretty soon the table was calling for odds on weird stuff, like the path of an insect or something like that. Haha, I got the point, laughed and took the joke. It was funny. Don't get uptight. Some of these players probably realize that's the only chance they'll have to be on top playing you, so let them enjoy it and don't get too uptight.

A bad beat is a bad beat. Hell, I lost a hand to about the worst Hold Em player in the world when his 88 caught the last remaining 8 on the river against my AA in the hole. I got upset for a few minutes, sure, but then I congratulated HIM on his good fortune. That way, he'll make the same damn play against me every time, and he has a good time.

Re: Playing against friends
 

I play a game every week and I win 90% of the time when i lose its a bad beat my friends know im good and they respect me. I look at home games not as a source of income but practice, and im willing to bust anyone friend or foe. I always want to play my best. i forget who said it but "but id bust my own grandma at the table" thats what i do everytime i sit down at the poker table wether it be at home b&m or online i want to destroy anyone who plays me. If i lose against friends i congradulate them on how they played that gutshot or how they check raised me all in with bottom pair on a semi bluff and caught trips on the river, whatever it may be because i know next week im more than likely to win it all.

Now dont get me wrong i always give the impression at the poker table that im there to have fun its the best way not to have people gunning for me or scare away potential fish. I treat my friends the same way i have fun laugh have a few beers but in my head its pot odds implied odds and equity. They always wonder why i count the pot lol i just say i like to see what i am gonna win in a joking manner.

So dont be pissed when they are gunning for you, because the way that you show yourself to them is a determined poker player not a social player like them. My advice is to have fun but still play for real.

Re: Playing against friends
 

Get invited back.
Don't leave in a huff with chips on the table.
Play as seriously as you like but have fun with them too. Convince yourself that you don't care whether they think they're outplaying you, and in fact you'd like them to think that sometimes.

Re: Playing against friends
 

Trick one: Just pretend to look at your cards but don't look at them. It will help you work on your reads and use of position.

Trick two: Play every hand for a round.

Use your time with your friends to blow off steam and have fun.