20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

good live 20-40 game. early position okay player raises, 3 people cold call, i call in the sb w/ K3c. bb calls. 6 of us.

the flop is 644 w/ two clubs. everyone checks to the second cold caller who plays bad. he bets, cutoff calls, i call, bb folds, preflop raiser calls, first cold caller calls. that's 5 of us.

the turn is an offsuit 3. checked to same guy who bets again, cutoff folds, i call, preflop raiser folds, other guy calls. 3 of us.

the river is another 4. checked to same guy who bets, i call.

comments?

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

I would checkraise the turn. You might be winning and you have outs if not. Plus, it's realistic your hand (out of the SB) could contain a 4.

Jeff

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

ive learned to not take issue w/ your preflop play.

you have a high card w/ no kicker and a card that might win the pot if it pairs and this bettor is FOS on the flop. the pf raiser looks like he's willing to call 1 bet. and clearly he's correct to. why give him that chance? a K that comes off commits you to the showdown and a raise may (almost certainly WILL knock out a better K). you cut down your drawing odds but increase the probability of you winning if you pair one of your cards.

on the turn i think you played it right and same w/ river. for me, the crucial decision is on the flop.

-Barron

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would checkraise the turn. You might be winning and you have outs if not. Plus, it's realistic your hand (out of the SB) could contain a 4.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

another place he could c'r. definately a good play since you likely fold out the caller who isn't the one who "plays bad"

what do you think of the c'r on the flop vs. turn?

-Barron

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

I don't really like checkraising the flop b/c I think multiway action on your draw is more valuable than clearing out a better king which may or may not be out there. You are most likely going to need to hit to win this. The turn changes things since now you might be leading and have the flush draw as backup. Plus you potentially get the good player off a better hand.

Jeff

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

Playing K-3 out of position leads to situations where one has to check-call the whole way. You pair your kicker card and there's guaranteed to be overcards on board. You're rarely going to have a powerful enough hand to make any kind of move

That said, I don't like the idea of check-raising the turn. The bettor, by your desciption, plays bad. To me, that means he could have a 6 or a 4 and a semi-bluff raise won't have half it's value, namely, that it might win right there.

I suppose a flop check-raise has the advantages the other posters have pointed out. But then again you don't have anything yet and you're up against a bad player.

I'd have just folded it pre-flop and that would have ben that.

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

You're getting 3.5-1 OoP Preflop. This should be an easy fold. What am I missing?

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

i started getting cute to with j3s or defending with retarded hands like j6o and 96o, then i relized all i do is make many wrongs plays with them and they show me a better hand at shodown anyway.

but i know you dont care if someone tells you to fold preflop

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

"But then again you don't have anything yet and you're up against a bad player."

after 40 years of hold em or whatever it's been you surely have learned that a four flush on the flop is quite a bit more than "you don't have anything yet" right??

"a semi-bluff raise"

youre thinking about this wrong. a checkraise on the flop or the turn wouldnt be a semibluff raise. it'd just be a raise. no better hands would ever fold and some worse hands would call. well wait that's not true, i might get a 6 or 55 out on the turn if i checkraise and face the whole field with two bets cold. but what i mean is the turn bettor will never ever fold a 6 or 55 or A3 or anything there.

anyway what happened was i made a weird loose call preflop that i think was wrong only by a little (if it's wrong at all) given how loose and passive these people play and then i made a decision to not try and get AK or any other stray king overcard out on the flop w/ a checkraise. then on the turn i also wussed out when i decided i still likely had strictly a draw and nothing more.

anyway what a game it would be if something like a turn c/r here would have the advantage of sometimes seeing the preflop bettor sometimes fold a 6 or something. it'd be a game im not familiar with, but it'd make for a more interesting game nonetheless.

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

How I would play this flop:

Check-raise, knock out the PFR is he has AK as well as knocking out other potential gutshot chasers/overcards that might not call 2 small bets, but would definitely call 1 small bet thus increasing your chances to win if you miss a flush but still hit any pair with your 3 or king if the "bad" player is betting with donkey crap.

Depending on what happens after I c/r the flop (how many callers remain, who called and such) I would most likely lead into the turn with any card that falls.

River: I like the check-call thing unless I hit my flush.

Lawrence

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd have just folded it pre-flop and that would have ben that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't give Mike a lot of credit for calling with such a hand pre-flop Andy. It's a slight -EV decision. However this decision can be "repaired" as I like to call it based on:

1. How loose/poor the players in this game play post flop.
2. How much ground Mike can back on this -EV play pre-flop with his post-flop play. The donkier the opponents, the more EV Mike can gain back.
3. How well Mike can read his opponents and how poorly can Mike opponent's read Mike.

In this particular game/hand it appears that with an EP raiser still getting 5 callers, the game must appear good enough that perhaps playing K3 suited has some warrant.

Mike doesn't need a power hand to really blow his opponents away. If he trusts his reads enough, and is aggressive enough with this marginal holding on this particular flop then imho he can maximize his chances of winning the pot and that is the key thing to look for here.

Folding earns him nothing. Playing passively is bad poker in this spot against other donkeys. Playing aggressively to maximize his chances of winning and knocking players out, while sacrificing the extra SB or BB is what I prefer to see.

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're getting 3.5-1 OoP Preflop. This should be an easy fold. What am I missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike L. is an excellent post-flop player. 3.5-1 OoP is plenty for him to call with here. He will win some big pots and he has the ability to get away from the hand early.

For people who don't play well after the flop, this is probably a fold.

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

While most of the posters in this thread seem to hate the pre-flop call, given how good this game seems and how well you play post flop I think this is an easy call.

The real debate seems to be when to make a move, and I guess it really depends on the players. Is there any chance of selling that you flopped trips and getting the bettor to fold? from the sound of it, the answer is no, in which case I think c/c the flop and the turn is good. On the river, however, the plan really depends on what kind of "bad" the bettor is? Is he laggy bad, weak/tight bad, loose passive bad? It matters, alot. If he's laggy, i'm leading this river, and expecting at least one A-high to call me, before the action gets to the bettor. If he's weak/tight I c/c, as you did, and if he's l/p it would depend on what I know if his value betting standards. If I think there's any chance that he'd bet the turn w/ a 6, or something like 88, i'm leading the river. If he needs a 4 to bet, i'm c/c and letting him show it to me. Oh, and if I lead and get raised, i'm calling, unless its 2 bets cold to me.

Very interesting hand, imo,

lf

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

This is similar to the Oscarpgm post somewhere else today. I think you can call the river just about here. With Queen high, probably not (are there 2 or 3 left at the river? If there's 3 I'm far more likely to give up).

results no peeking
 

so anyway i called and barfed in my mouth when the next guy overcalled behind me. guy who was betting the whole way said "i missed" and showed like jack high or some crap, i showed my hand and overcaller showed K3h for the chopped pot. there was one heart on the flop fyi.

so there ya go. it wasnt my king outs i needed to worry about cleaning up on the flop with a standard c/r, it was my trey outs! silly me.

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

I define "anything" as something you can win with. I define semi-bluffing as betting with a usually mediocre hand that probably is not best at the time but, if called, has an opportunity to win to a probable winner.

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

Nice post.

IMHO, mike would do well to pay more attention to starting with the best cards than to how much ground he can "repair" post-flop. It's hard to play the kind of power poker you so concisely and eloquently talk about with K-3 from the small blind.

Folding earns him something if calling is -EV.

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

What I don't understand about the hand is this. You played K3s, I presume, mainly for the flush possibilities. You played it because the players already in were bad players. So, you get you flush draw and with 2 bad callers, you don't raise the Flop, AKA jam. With 2 limpers it's about break even to jam a flush draw and if those guys behind you are bad too then it's likely you'll get some coldcallers. When you consider that raising might clean up some outs as well, I just don’t understand your Flop overcall. So, what am I missing?

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

the definition and concept for semibluff starts to fall apart lately right here:

"a usually mediocre hand"

and

"probably is not best at the time"

btw it was tommy who first got me thinking about the idea of "semibluff" as a concept being faulty.

"I define "anything" as something you can win with."

good to know. so now that weve established youre using that word incorrectly, it'd be best if you just go ahead and stop using it.

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

"So, what am I missing?"

nothing. not checkraising the flop here is terrible poker. i was playing bad yesterday.

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

[ QUOTE ]
How I would play this flop:

Check-raise, knock out the PFR is he has AK

[/ QUOTE ]

Knock out AK by checkraising 445 flop with a flush draw possible? That can't possibly work.

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

OK, I won't use "anything" anymore. I'd venture a guess, however, that it gets me into less trouble, with people other than you, than playing K-3 for a raise from the small blind. Perhaps not though.

Anything else?

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really like checkraising the flop b/c I think multiway action on your draw is more valuable than clearing out a better king which may or may not be out there. You are most likely going to need to hit to win this. The turn changes things since now you might be leading and have the flush draw as backup. Plus you potentially get the good player off a better hand.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is right....Would your opinion on the flop CR change if our hero had K8?

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

What about leading the flop?

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK, I won't use "anything" anymore. I'd venture a guess, however, that it gets me into less trouble, with people other than you, than playing K-3 for a raise from the small blind. Perhaps not though.

Anything else?

[/ QUOTE ]

very well put, andy! btw, mike, i like ur style too [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

[ QUOTE ]
What about leading the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, i was surprised no one mentioned this possibility. I was thinking this would be a good way to get lots of bets into the pot, but then i re-read the original post...the PFR is two seats to mike's left, and if he or the BB raise, then mike is losing a lot of the benefit of the draw. Of course, since it is a live game, Mike may be able to look left and determine that neither will do this to him.

If that's the case, then I like the flop lead, re-raise if you can (other than a raise from late position, then just call). Turn then becomes a check-raise, call if 3-bet and hope to flush on river.

--dan

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

"Anything else?"

yeah your avatar. i didnt know youre gay.

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

"nothing. not checkraising the flop here is terrible poker. i was playing bad yesterday."

No, not checkraising the flop is a viable option. It was not donkbetting the turn that was a mistake.

-Michael

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

no i thought about it and the flop c/r is the play. would you have called preflop? assume a very good passive 20 like normal.

isnt it past your bedtime?

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

Live and learn.

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

[ QUOTE ]
no i thought about it and the flop c/r is the play. would you have called preflop? assume a very good passive 20 like normal.

isnt it past your bedtime?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused. It seems like you're being a little results oriented here, only because as it turned out a flop c/r would have cleaned up your 3. Tough to see that coming.

In the hand, however, on the flop, you have a draw. A good one, yes, but still a draw. You can't possibily imagine that a flop c/r will clean up your K outs (they're gonna call) and how could you possibily know that you needed to clean up your three.

furthermore a flop c/r will definately hurt your drawing odds, and given that the board is paired you might get 3 bet drawing slim/dead and be unable get away from it due to the wide range of hands your opponents might 3bet with.

I think a flop c/r is not the way to go, but that you should have done it on the turn, after your hand picked up some showdown value.

Am I way off here?

lf

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

"You can't possibily imagine that a flop c/r will clean up your K outs (they're gonna call)"

no i usually will get the fold from all sorts of Ks here on the flop when i make them face two cold after they whiff the flop.

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

[ QUOTE ]
"You can't possibily imagine that a flop c/r will clean up your K outs (they're gonna call)"

no i usually will get the fold from all sorts of Ks here on the flop when i make them face two cold after they whiff the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If thats the case then I guess I can understand wanting to c/r the flop, every LA game i've ever played in the guy w/ AK/KQ isn't folding this flop for 2 bets. They must have gotten tighter.

lf

Re: 20-40 hand, lots of decisions yet i just check-call the whole way!
 

this was not in LA it was in oceanside where i live.

I peeked
 

I guess one of the things that makes the game so good is that there are guys playing K-3s for a raise.