Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

MP2 was a typical $33 player no signs of being crazy. MP1 is an idiot.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter

BB (t910)
UTG (t2030)
Hero (t695)
MP1 (t700)
MP2 (t775)
CO (t952)
Button (t980)
SB (t958)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls t30, Hero calls t30, MP1 calls t30, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to t125</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls t95, MP1 calls t95.

Flop: (t450) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets t300</font>, Hero is all in, MP1 calls t570, MP2 calls t270.

Turn: (t1590) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP1 is all in, MP2 calls t5.

River: (t1595) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>

Final Pot: t1595

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Jh Jd (one pair, jacks).
MP1 has 4c Ac (one pair, fours).
MP2 has Kd Kh (one pair, kings).
Outcome: MP2 wins t1595. </font>

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

Calling PF is an option, a better one may be folding PF give the size of the call in relation to your stacksize.

On the flop, you can muck or push. I prefer mucking, it seems MP1 has a legitimate hand.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

You were destined to go broke on that hand my friend. Any way you play it, you're going broke. At least I am.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

This is a trick question.

The second you see the flop you are going broke so your only option is just not seeing a flop which is prolly -EV.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a trick question.

The second you see the flop you are going broke so your only option is just not seeing a flop which is prolly -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, it would definately be -EV if the stacks were deeper, but w/ 800 chips, its not -EV to take a pass here.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

I think that your biggest error was getting dealt an underpair to the villain's kings. I'm going to guess that 90% of players go broke on this hand. IMO, not going broke means one of two things:

1) You're a world class player, or
2) You suck at poker.

Especially since you were a little short (695) when the hand started, I just don't see that you have a deep enough stack to get away from this.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

To tell you the truth Jacks are just not a good hand. Their medicore 4 or 5 handed. But almost a full table Call/Check/Fold for me.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

Maybe its just me but folding PF after you've limped with jacks seems way too weak tight. Just because someone raises a couple limpers doesn't mean they have QQ-AA, in fact, they probably don't have QQ-AA. I agree with 45suited, if you don't go broke you're either awful or one of the top players there are.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think that your biggest error was getting dealt an underpair to the villain's kings. I'm going to guess that 90% of players go broke on this hand. IMO, not going broke means one of two things:

1) You're a world class player, or
2) You suck at poker.

Especially since you were a little short (695) when the hand started, I just don't see that you have a deep enough stack to get away from this.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL I'd give up jacks in this spot. Does that mean I'm a world class player? Or a poker joke? Niether. If you can't get rid of jacks in this spot you might want to learn why you should. I've laid down Kings when and Aces flops
(NO BIG DEAL, I knew I was beat). You need to make good laydowns to beat SNGs and Poker. Simple as that.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

Originally calling preflop, and just flat calling the raise preflop were your mistakes IMO. You are too shortstacked to play JJ so weakly.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

I don't call the preflop raise. Early on in the 800 stacks I play JJ for cheap. With the way he bet preflop and that flop I expect to see qq+.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

I would raise pre-flop. When the likely re-raise came from the K's, I would probably push unless this guy's been an absolute rock. If the K's flat called the pre-flop raise, I'm going broke after the flop.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe its just me but folding PF after you've limped with jacks seems way too weak tight. Just because someone raises a couple limpers doesn't mean they have QQ-AA, in fact, they probably don't have QQ-AA. I agree with 45suited, if you don't go broke you're either awful or one of the top players there are.

[/ QUOTE ]

But he did have it. Its not weak tight. It was his mistake to limp/call. It should of been bet/fold.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

Let's look at the preflop raise. If he is solid he either has big cards or has you beaten, with the possible exception of TT. So if you just call preflop, you probably won't get too much more action out of a hand that you beat, or he outflops you and then you don't want the action.

The problem is that you never gave him a chance to tell you if he has you beat. His continuation bet could mean anything.

I would fold preflop to the raise with these stack sizes. But if you're going to call, I would make a probe bet (t150 or so) and fold to a push. But I don't really like that line because you don't win enough the times he has big cards to make up for the amount you lose when you are crushed; the stacks are just not deep enough to get away from this post flop really.

Position is king. Fold preflop.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]

I disagree, it would definately be -EV if the stacks were deeper, but w/ 800 chips, its not -EV to take a pass here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maulik are you saying if the stacks were DEEPER you'd be willing to play this a little farther (i.e. bet or call on the flop), but given the size of the stacks its either AI or fold on the flop, so you choose fold?

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

If only you all knew how much I hate limping in here with JJ. I think its just terrible, but everyone seems to like it!

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't get rid of jacks in this spot you might want to learn why you should. I've laid down Kings when and Aces flops (NO BIG DEAL, I knew I was beat). You need to make good laydowns to beat SNGs and Poker. Simple as that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huge difference between laying down kings when an ace flops and this scenario. Hero doesn't have enough of a stack to lay down an overpair to this flop.

I'll venture to guess for every "good laydown" you make in spots like this, you're giving up several pots and leaving a lot of money on the table. So when he called pre-flop, what kind of flop should he have been hoping for exactly? Trip jacks?

Sometimes you're just destined to go broke. This hand is one of them.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
But he did have it. Its not weak tight. It was his mistake to limp/call. It should of been bet/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean he should raise/fold preflop or bet/fold the flop? Bet/folding the flop is AWFUL.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

Your poll omits my preference which would be to open with a push on the flop. By going for the check raise with your now small stack your opponent has great pot odds and would struggle to now find a fold on the flop. I want him to fold becuase if I don't hit a set with JJ I always want them to fold early in a tourney.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />

If only you all knew how much I hate limping in here with JJ. I think its just terrible, but everyone seems to like it!

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I don't think I've ever limped UTG+1 with JJ. Maybe in late position after 6 or 7 limpers I could see making a case for limping and hoping for a good flop, but UTG+1?

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]

If only you all knew how much I hate limping in here with JJ. I think its just terrible, but everyone seems to like it!

[/ QUOTE ]

Curtains if you PFR with it do you call his impending re-raise (i.e. if KK pushes, or bumps it to t350)?

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Position is king. Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I often feel like a tight player on this forum. Here's how I play the hand:

Raise pre-flop. If re-raised, I think that he can decide what to do at that point. I would never limp in this spot (level 2) especially since I have only 690 chips.

Once again, I'm amazed at how undervalued jacks are on this forum.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
If only you all knew how much I hate limping in here with JJ. I think its just terrible, but everyone seems to like it!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with you curtains (and not just because you're so respected...), I hate it. Not only do I raise preflop, but I push to a re-raise which everybody must really, really hate.

I play at Stars though, and people playing the $33's will re-raise in this spot with hands like AQ, AJ, low PP, etc. enough to make pushing J's into the re-raise +EV in my opinion.

It sounds like at the Party $33's people are MUCH tighter.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]

If only you all knew how much I hate limping in here with JJ. I think its just terrible, but everyone seems to like it!

[/ QUOTE ]

It makes me want to vomit actually. I dont get it at all.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

Well also we are pretty shortstacked! I just don't understand how playing this way with JJ is so common, it just seems so terrible to me. Sometimes it at least has some merit, but in this situation I think it's just mindless.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If only you all knew how much I hate limping in here with JJ. I think its just terrible, but everyone seems to like it!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with you curtains (and not just because you're so respected...), I hate it. Not only do I raise preflop, but I push to a re-raise which everybody must really, really hate.

I play at Stars though, and people playing the $33's will re-raise in this spot with hands like AQ, AJ, low PP, etc. enough to make pushing J's into the re-raise +EV in my opinion.

It sounds like at the Party $33's people are MUCH tighter.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, its not that PP is tighter, its that starting stacks are less so you are committing larger %s of stack any time you enter a hand. That aside,

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

Depends but usually yes. Theze bozos raise with too much crap.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you can't get rid of jacks in this spot you might want to learn why you should. I've laid down Kings when and Aces flops (NO BIG DEAL, I knew I was beat). You need to make good laydowns to beat SNGs and Poker. Simple as that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huge difference between laying down kings when an ace flops and this scenario. Hero doesn't have enough of a stack to lay down an overpair to this flop.

I'll venture to guess for every "good laydown" you make in spots like this, you're giving up several pots and leaving a lot of money on the table. So when he called pre-flop, what kind of flop should he have been hoping for exactly? Trip jacks?

Sometimes you're just destined to go broke. This hand is one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]


Absolutely No difference. At best with your jacks your looking at AK, AQ and Donkey KQ. Which are all coin-flips. Not including the QQ-AA which has you already dominated. Why take a risk at such an early stage in the tournament, is my point. No need, what happens if your right, what happens if your wrong.

Right,-You possible could win a good size pot and double up.

--Doesn't mean your guaranteed ITM, doesn't mean anything, except more chips for bubble.

Wrong,-Your Out.

--You lose the tournament. You differently could of got better cards in bubble time, we never know.

BUT I THINK Limping is find UTG. But calling the raise is bad.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

Will somebody please explain something to me:

How is it that the justification for taking early coinflips with AK (and continuation betting on whiffed flops) is that opponents play all kinds of crap, but the consensus on this forum seems to be that jacks are a marginal hand?

Not raising with jacks in this spot, especially with his stack, is godawful. He ran into a monster, big deal, stuff happens. What about all the times that he raises, gets called by crap, and wins nice pots?

I'm raising in this spot with jacks EVERY time.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

ive only really played the 109s for any significant number to have an opinion there at that level, but i really dont understand the limp with jj it is so awful, i raise pre and then fold to the reraise, a limp then a raise then a re raise has much more strength then a guy just raising a bunch of limpers, to say things like you must go broke on this hand is not true at all.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If only you all knew how much I hate limping in here with JJ. I think its just terrible, but everyone seems to like it!

[/ QUOTE ]

Curtains if you PFR with it do you call his impending re-raise (i.e. if KK pushes, or bumps it to t350)?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not curtains, but OP's PF decision needs to be looked at here frozen when it was his turn to act. Not raising here has got to be -EV...obviously disaster happened to be looming, but I don't see why that should be taken into account when discussing OP's limp.

If OP raises, how much? Then look at the reraise/allin and put him on a range, look at your odds, and call or fold...I think I would call given OP's remaining stack if I raised PF.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />

If only you all knew how much I hate limping in here with JJ. I think its just terrible, but everyone seems to like it!

[/ QUOTE ]

Curtains if you PFR with it do you call his impending re-raise (i.e. if KK pushes, or bumps it to t350)?

[/ QUOTE ]

After 1 limper, I'm probably raising this to 100-115 or so. Now, let's say it's folded to MP2, and he re-raises. If he pushes, I'm almost always folding. If he raises to 350 or so, I'm folding too. I can't invest that much preflop, and I don't think JJ is going to hold up very well against his range of hands. The only situation I might not fold would be a min-reraise. I would probably end up calling that, unless he had shown himself to be stupid aggressive earlier in the tournament, and open push any under flop, try to get all his chips in when a J flops. Otherwise, check-fold.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
But he did have it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not relevant. If enemy would have played AK/AQ the same way, then hero would be correct to bet/call PF.

[ QUOTE ]
{Bet/fold is} not weak tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is.

[ QUOTE ]
It was his mistake to limp/call. It should have been bet/ <font color="red"> call. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP. If the KK reraises to 270, you're getting 2.25:1 (405 in the middle against a 180 call). If the enemy plays AK-AQ and AA-QQ the same way, that's a pos-EV call. And you go broke to that flop, IMO.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

"How is it that the justification for taking early coinflips with AK"

This would be terrible. No-one is advising you to do this. You only do this against players who are so LAG that they could be pushing/raising/calling K7 or some crap.

"but the consensus on this forum seems to be that jacks are a marginal hand?"

Obviously not, more people on this thread love raising jacks than limping them.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
To tell you the truth Jacks are just not a good hand. Their medicore 4 or 5 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the most ridiculous things I have read in a long time. It's the 4th best hand in poker and should be treated as such.

Hero in this hand started the hand with 690 chips! Not raising is really bad here. Think about all the pots he ends up winning by raising here. He needs chips, raising with the 4th best hand in poker sounds like a good way to get them.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]

Not raising with jacks in this spot, especially with his stack, is godawful. He ran into a monster, big deal, stuff happens. What about all the times that he raises, gets called by crap, and wins nice pots?


[/ QUOTE ]

Alright, say you raise with JJ in EP and get 1 LP caller. The flop comes Kxx. Now what? Bet and fold to a raise? Now you're REALLY shortstacked.

The flop comes with 1 over half the time, and you usually won't win more than the initial raise if the overs don't come. So 65% of the time you win t150 and the other 35% or so you lose t700. You will almost never stack someone unless they have TT/99 and the flop comes 8 high or whatever. Except maybe not even then because you raised preflop in EP.

This is definitely a win a small pot lose your whole stack situation. I would rather fold preflop (instead of the limp) than play a big pot here out of position when I have 23 BB left.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I disagree, it would definately be -EV if the stacks were deeper, but w/ 800 chips, its not -EV to take a pass here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maulik are you saying if the stacks were DEEPER you'd be willing to play this a little farther (i.e. bet or call on the flop), but given the size of the stacks its either AI or fold on the flop, so you choose fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

With deep stacks I'd be willing to call the raise PF. If I'm in this hand its likely I'm going broke given all the chips already in the middle. The large bet in a multi-way hand indicates strength more so than a continuation bet. With deeper stacks, I could muck unimproved or depending on the texture of the flop.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To tell you the truth Jacks are just not a good hand. Their medicore 4 or 5 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the most ridiculous things I have read in a long time. It's the 4th best hand in poker and should be treated as such.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to agree that this is totally ridiculous. There's a huge difference between JJ UTG/UTG+1 early at a full or near-full table than with 4-5 people at it.

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, say you raise with JJ in EP and get 1 LP caller. The flop comes Kxx. Now what? Bet and fold to a raise? Now you're REALLY shortstacked.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused now. You have no problem continuation betting a completely whiffed AK against one opponent but suddenly my jacks have no value if an overcard comes???

Re: Poll -- What is Hero\'s error in this $33 hand
 

I would have raised preflop to begin with, and make things a lot easier. I open for 75-100 preflop and see what happens. JJ is a tough hand to play out of position, and raising preflop gives us pretty cheap information about what hands we are up agaist postflop. You played preflop like you were playing for set value, so then you should fold the flop when you miss.