A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

First one is a no brainer, next is a little bit harder, but I want to know what the average trouter is doing for the 3rd situation

In all these situations: Just finishing your first orbit at whatever micro full ring game you are playing at, and you arrive in the UTG with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. All unknowns

1)you limp, as does UTG+2, MP1 and MP2, the CO raises, the blinds fold, and every already in calls (11.5 SB)

flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

what's your move?



[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]



2) you limp, as does UTG+1, MP1 and CO. SB folds, and BB raises. Everyone calls (10.5 SB)

flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB bets, what's your move?



[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]



3)you limp, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2, MP2, and CO all CC, blinds fold. you call (11.5 SB)

flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

what's your move?

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

Hand 1: Bet

Hand 2: Raise

Hand 3: We'll get raised, I think i check and see if they have a raising war. Take appropiate action after(Folding).

You could bet... I just think we'll end up folding [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

1. Check, if CO bets I cr, otherwise fold.

2. Fold.

3. Check and see what happens.

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

I think this is the whole "you guys fold too much" + protecting your hand. Maybe not. I have a problem with this area because im kicker scared. But if we are going with protect your hand.

1) check raise a bet from the CO

2) Raise to protect your hand

3) bet to have utg+1 raise to protect your hand.

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is the whole "you guys fold too much" + protecting your hand. Maybe not. I have a problem with this area because im kicker scared. But if we are going with protect your hand.

1) check raise a bet from the CO

2) Raise to protect your hand

3) bet to have utg+1 raise to protect your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is the whole "you guys fold too much" + protecting your hand. Maybe not. I have a problem with this area because im kicker scared. But if we are going with protect your hand.

1) check raise a bet from the CO

2) Raise to protect your hand

3) bet to have utg+1 raise to protect your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

that is my answer, but I am concerned about #3

1 and 2 are easy because somebody could bet with UI broadways, or an underpair, so we could raise, no problem

but for #3, I am concerned because raising is a different animal than betting, would villian raise with anything less than TPGK?

Edited for clarity

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

I see what you mean.

I guess some other lines we could take are.

1) Bet, if he raises we can assume that he can beat top pair/bad kicker and we are drawing to 3 outs.

2) Check/Call and play it like a 5 outer? I dont like that.

3) Check/raise? That seems really bad to me. If he bets he could be betting anything, plus alot of people can now call with their middle or bottom pair correctly and outdraw us if we have the best hand.

I think betting is our best option. It gives us a chance to protect our hand, and we might have the best hand. Also if UTG+1 raises we have more insight to where we stand currently.

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

[ QUOTE ]
1. Check, if CO bets I cr, otherwise fold.

2. Fold.

3. Check and see what happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

!!!

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

protect, protect, protect

1) c/r to protect
2) raise to protect
3) bet to protect

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

1 check hoping for a cr, if bet from another villan, call and reevaluate turn.
2 raise, hope to get this heads up, if 3 bet call and fold turn ui
3 bet out hoping utg will raise for u to get this heads up
you have TPNK and bdsd, i would think u really want this heads up hoping ur villain will possible have raised with some hand thats not holding an ace which could be many, and being unkowns they may be the flop or raise with such hands as KK, QQ, maybe JJ, and others.

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

1. Bet if raised fold. If called check/fold turn.

2. Fold

3. Same as 1

bet/hope to get raised?
 

for #3, i've been getting alot of bet/hoping to get raised answers

I don't know if its worth continuing the hand w/o a read, lets say, like some of you suggest, that villian would raise PP's on top of TPMK.


KK-TT, 88 - 6 combos each(30 total), and we're good

on the other hand:
99 - 3 combos, and we're drawing to 2 outs
AK-AJ sooted or not - 16 combos each (48 total), and we're drawing to 3 outs
AT-A8 sooted - 4 combos each (12 total), and we're drawing to 3 outs


63 times we're shafted, 30 times we're gold.

does this change anybody's arguement? what's the line you guys are taking for the rest of the hand?

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

checkraise, raise, bet.

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

1. Check/call with the intention of check/raising the turn.
2. Call with the intention of raising the turn. If it's 2 bets back to me on the flop, I fold.
3. Trying to decide between a checkraise and a call with a raise on the turn. Undecided at this point.

Re: bet/hope to get raised?
 

bump

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

Hand 1: Check with the intention of check/raising a bet from CO.

Hand 2: Raise to protect your hand

Hand 3: I think you need to bet out here and hope that UTG+1 raises.

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

[ QUOTE ]
1)you limp, as does UTG+2, MP1 and MP2, the CO raises, the blinds fold, and every already in calls (11.5 SB)

flop: A 9 2

what's your move?


[/ QUOTE ]

Check raise the CO.

[ QUOTE ]
2) you limp, as does UTG+1, MP1 and CO. SB folds, and BB raises. Everyone calls (10.5 SB)

flop: A 9 2

BB bets, what's your move?


[/ QUOTE ]

Raise BB.

[ QUOTE ]
3)you limp, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2, MP2, and CO all CC, blinds fold. you call (11.5 SB)

flop: A 9 2



[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the size of the pot when it's back to me after my check. If it's big enough to call i do. I'm giving my self 3.5 outs.

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

1) Check, planning to checkraise the probable bet from PFR, planning to knock everyone else out. Don't think I'll play on if it's bet and raised by people other than the PFR.
2) Raise in an attempt to thin the field.
3) I check and see what happens before deciding what else to do. I fold to a bet and a raise, but generally call a single bet, especially if it's from the PFR and no one raises, and I'm ecstatic if it's from the PFR and everyone else folds. I don't like betting out because PFR often won't raise us unless we're beat, especially in this huge field.

Re: bet/hope to get raised?
 

[ QUOTE ]
for #3, i've been getting alot of bet/hoping to get raised answers

I don't know if its worth continuing the hand w/o a read, lets say, like some of you suggest, that villian would raise PP's on top of TPMK.


KK-TT, 88 - 6 combos each(30 total), and we're good

on the other hand:
99 - 3 combos, and we're drawing to 2 outs
AK-AJ sooted or not - 16 combos each (48 total), and we're drawing to 3 outs
AT-A8 sooted - 4 combos each (12 total), and we're drawing to 3 outs


63 times we're shafted, 30 times we're gold.

does this change anybody's arguement? what's the line you guys are taking for the rest of the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's my argument:

The pot is very big. Even if we are only drawing to 3 outs we are gonna have odds to see the turn. So, if we are going to the turn anyway, I want our outs to be as clean as possible, not to mention that we may actually have the best hand at this point.

In short, odds dictate that we see the turn here. I would much rather see the turn heads up than 5 handed.

Re: bet/hope to get raised?
 

Just posted my grunch reply, and after reading the other posts it just solidifies my answer.

If PFR bets and everyone else folds, it may be best to just take the way ahead/way behind line of check-calling all the way down. I agree that when I bet out and get raised on the flop I expect to run into AK-ATs way too often to like my hand, and if he does have QQ or something I'd rather not scare him off by betting into that large field. If villian bets the flop and someone else raises I'm gone, I'll only be getting like 6-to-1 and I'm out of position and have no idea where I stand.

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

As noone else said that: Fold preflop. (Sweet revenge for ppl replying to my posts about river play by saying: "fold preflop")

1. C-R
2. Fold.
3. Check-call or fold if the action looks bad.

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

In all situations we have top pair on a drawless board with a preflop raiser and a bunch of callers. What hands do you want to protect against with a raise? If nobody else has an A they have 2 outs with pockets and 5 outs with a 9 or a 2.

Raising is great if the preflop raiser has a high pocket and a raise will make someone fold a better A, like A5, or if someone has a 9.
It's also great if the preflop raiser will define his hand with a 3-bet if he has a better A so we can fold the turn UI.

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

[ QUOTE ]
Depends on the size of the pot when it's back to me after my check. If it's big enough to call i do. I'm giving my self 3.5 outs

[/ QUOTE ]

The bigger pot it is when it's back to you the smaller the chance you have the best hand, so if it's big it's an easier fold. If UTG+1 bets and everyone else folds it's an easy call down, if UTG+1 bets and everyone calls chances are slim that you have the best A so you fold.

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

[ QUOTE ]
As noone else said that: Fold preflop. (Sweet revenge for ppl replying to my posts about river play by saying: "fold preflop")



[/ QUOTE ]

As I read this thread I had to realize that this hand is to hard for me to play correctly yet postflop.
So dito

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

1) bet
2) raise
3) hmm... i tend to bet.

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

1) Check
2) Raise
3) I tend to check this as well. Do I have a read that Villain will raise something like KK or QQ here?

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Depends on the size of the pot when it's back to me after my check. If it's big enough to call i do. I'm giving my self 3.5 outs

[/ QUOTE ]

The bigger pot it is when it's back to you the smaller the chance you have the best hand, so if it's big it's an easier fold. If UTG+1 bets and everyone else folds it's an easy call down, if UTG+1 bets and everyone calls chances are slim that you have the best A so you fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. But if the pot is big enough to draw to my 4 then I'll peel.

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

I'm glad I posted this, I'm changing my default line for the 3rd situation from "betting, hoping to get raised" to check, an re-evaluate when the action comes back to us, or bet on turn.

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Depends on the size of the pot when it's back to me after my check. If it's big enough to call i do. I'm giving my self 3.5 outs

[/ QUOTE ]

The bigger pot it is when it's back to you the smaller the chance you have the best hand, so if it's big it's an easier fold. If UTG+1 bets and everyone else folds it's an easy call down, if UTG+1 bets and everyone calls chances are slim that you have the best A so you fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. But if the pot is big enough to draw to my 4 then I'll peel.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are pretty sure you are dominated by a better A it would be a mistake to draw to a 4. You would only have 3 outs and you could be behind to a set or maybe A9. A dubious weak draw and you are not sure you will win if you hit = fold.

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

I haven't been limping this UTG, in a 6max game I will often raise this and in full ring muck (both are table dependent however). I would limp in LP w/ 2-3 limpers already in. However, since that's not what you asked:

1. Check-raise the CO.
2. Raise.
3. Check, re-evaluate when it gets back to you. If it is more then one bet back to you, fold.

In all cases, I would say to proceed cautiously. If you are behind you are drawing to at most 3 outs. Any aggression should cause you to fold.

In the first case, you run the risk of CO calling you down w/ AJ, AT, thinking his kicker may be no good.
In the second, you very well could be raising someone who has you crushed at this point.
In the third, you've got a mess of coldcallers, unless this table is ultra-loose they started w/ something.

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

Humm,
I really like
1. CR
2. Raise
3. Check fold ( i think ur beat here, so dont protect a loser)

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

If Grunch Grunches, does the universe implode?

Let's find out...

1) Check. If CO bets, raise. If anyone else bets, either fold or raise.
2) Raise. If I get it HU and BB checks the turn, I'll bet the turn then check the river. If there were CCers on the flop or if BB 3-bets, I'm usually done with this hand.
3) Check with the intention of folding, unless pot odds dictate I continue to the turn, which it looks like they will. I'll usually fold this on the turn unless I spike a 4.

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

Hand 1: I think my line here is a C/R on the flop only if CO bets first. I'm folding to any other bet and especially if it's two back to me.

Hand 2: Raise. I want to represent a big hand and try and knock out anyone else that's holding an Ace and weak kicker.

Hand 3: Bet. From there it depends. UTG raising would be nice to knock out the field, but then we have to wonder if UTG has a big Ace or just an underpair like KK/QQ that he's playing aggressively. If UTG just calls, then unfortunately we will probably get a few other callers as well and we'll have no clue as to the strength of our hand. A C/R is out of the question, and I don't like a C/C, so bet it is.

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

[ QUOTE ]
If Grunch Grunches, does the universe implode?

[/ QUOTE ]

how does it feel to drink your own kool-aid? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's find out...

1) Check. If CO bets, raise. If anyone else bets, either fold or raise.
2) Raise. If I get it HU and BB checks the turn, I'll bet the turn then check the river. If there were CCers on the flop or if BB 3-bets, I'm usually done with this hand.
3) Check with the intention of folding, unless pot odds dictate I continue to the turn, which it looks like they will. I'll usually fold this on the turn unless I spike a 4.

[/ QUOTE ]

i like your lines too.

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

A little wierd. The idea amused me for a moment, but that moment has passed. Now I just feel like a dirty whore!

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Depends on the size of the pot when it's back to me after my check. If it's big enough to call i do. I'm giving my self 3.5 outs

[/ QUOTE ]

The bigger pot it is when it's back to you the smaller the chance you have the best hand, so if it's big it's an easier fold. If UTG+1 bets and everyone else folds it's an easy call down, if UTG+1 bets and everyone calls chances are slim that you have the best A so you fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. But if the pot is big enough to draw to my 4 then I'll peel.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are pretty sure you are dominated by a better A it would be a mistake to draw to a 4. You would only have 3 outs and you could be behind to a set or maybe A9. A dubious weak draw and you are not sure you will win if you hit = fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see your point. But we haven't determined that preflop raiser has an A yet. I take his line with KK-TT also.

I just think the hand plays totally different if we catch a 4 or maybe even an A on the turn. 4=good A=not so good.

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

1) c/c, c/c, bet

2) I'm inclined to raise to blow out the rest of the field and get it heads up with the pfr. The raise also has the added benefit of finding out where BB is. If he 3-bets I'm most likely folding the turn UI, not sure what to do if he stop-and-go's me.

3) I kinda like the idea of betting into UTG+1's raise, again to blast out the field, and then c/c, bet on the turn / river. I may be too much of a LAG, but I think we have the best hand here a decent chunk of the time and UTG+1 is raising out bet pretty much every time.

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

I disagree with just checking and reevaluating, because unless he's super weak tight, the PFR is betting here about 100% of the time when you check to him. You gain no information and so you have to reevaluate, but you haven't really learned anything, unless everyone else folds, which is unlikely.

I much prefer grunch's line of checking with the intention of folding unless pot odds dictate a call to the 3-outer. Just saying check-reevaluate seems like you're just putting off the decision, but not making it any easier.

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with just checking and reevaluating, because unless he's super weak tight, the PFR is betting here about 100% of the time when you check to him. You gain no information and so you have to reevaluate, but you haven't really learned anything, unless everyone else folds, which is unlikely.

I much prefer grunch's line of checking with the intention of folding unless pot odds dictate a call to the 3-outer. Just saying check-reevaluate seems like you're just putting off the decision, but not making it any easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

be re-evaluate, I mean that. it's not an auto-call or auto-muck, you need to see if you have the pot odds by the time the action is back to you

Re: A hypothetical Axs question, grunch please
 

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with just checking and reevaluating, because unless he's super weak tight, the PFR is betting here about 100% of the time when you check to him. You gain no information and so you have to reevaluate, but you haven't really learned anything, unless everyone else folds, which is unlikely.

[/ QUOTE ]

-Don't fixate on Villain, there are several other players in this pot. You aren't supposed to know or care what Villain has just yet, but how everyone else reacts to his bet should give you a better idea of where you stand.
-If we bet, and Villain folds, we find out our hand was better than his, but now we scared him out when he usually would have bet our hand for us if we checked
-If we bet, and Villain raises, we find out we're crushed and spent money to find out. If we bet, and Villain raises, and someone else 3-bets, we learn nothing we wouldn't have found out by checking (and saving a bet!)
-If we check, Villain bets, and everyone else folds (not likely, but certainly possible) there is a decent chance he will continue to bet all the way with KK-JJ if we just continue to check-call, which is why I like that route if the action dictates a play based on the strength of our hand rather than our draw.
-If he bets and someone calls, that doesn't necessarily mean an A, the pot is big enough that something like say a 9 is getting odds to call, so even this situation isn't an auto-fold.