Check or bet the turn? (big draw in the Party 3/6 6m)
 

Only been there for an orbit or two, and my comp is sucky lately so I'm 4-tabling sans PT/GT+. So my apologies, but this is sans reads. I haven't seen either player get notably out of line though.

I'm dipping my toes into the 3/6 6m and it feels fairly comfy so far, in that my opponents are making bigger mistakes than I am. I ran this hand past people in the #sstakes channel and they seemed to think the turn was worth debate.

Party Poker $3/$6 (6 max, 5 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG limps, Hero raises, Button folds, SB 3-bets, BB folds, UTG and Hero call.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, UTG calls two, Hero caps, both call.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero ???

Re: Check or bet the turn? (big draw in the Party 3/6 6m)
 

You have top pair and a flush draw. It's hard given the action on previous streets to bet here but I think against 2 opponents you have plenty of equity.

Re: Check or bet the turn? (big draw in the Party 3/6 6m)
 

Wow, I don't think its hard to find a bet here at all. I'm ecstatic that I improved.

[ QUOTE ]
Only been there for an orbit or two, and my comp is sucky lately so I'm 4-tabling sans PT/GT+. So my apologies, but this is sans reads.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know you said it was early in your session, but this is a good time to find out if GT+ is killing your table/hand-reading ability. And maybe see how you like the 2-tabling Grisgra is so fond of.

Re: Check or bet the turn? (big draw in the Party 3/6 6m)
 

I doubt you have much fold equity, but your hand is probably best close to 1/3 of the time anyway, plus you have that monster draw, so a bet is probably good, and certainly not awful.

One merit to consider re: checking, though, is that SB may bet into you again on the river when you make your hand.

Re: Check or bet the turn? (big draw in the Party 3/6 6m)
 

Why the flop cap? I'd prefer calling the 3-bet and raise it up on the turn or river if you hit your diamond, jack, or queen.

Re: Check or bet the turn? (big draw in the Party 3/6 6m)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why the flop cap? I'd prefer calling the 3-bet and raise it up on the turn or river if you hit your diamond, jack, or queen.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thought at the time was that it was a free card play, so that if the turn bricked I could check behind. With UTG feeding bets in there, I felt the flop cap was pretty standard. Do others disagree?

Re: Check or bet the turn? (big draw in the Party 3/6 6m)
 

Easy bet I think. For value.

Results
 

Bump for more comments, but here's the rest of the hand.

Party Poker $3/$6 (6 max, 5 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG limps, Hero raises, Button folds, SB 3-bets, BB folds, UTG and Hero call.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, UTG calls two, Hero caps, both call.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, both call.

RESULTS IN WHITE
<font color="white">SB had Kh, Ks: a pair of kings.
UTG had 6h, Ad: a pair of sixes.
Hero had Jd, Qd: two pair, queens and jacks. MHIG.</font>

Re: Check or bet the turn? (big draw in the Party 3/6 6m)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why the flop cap? I'd prefer calling the 3-bet and raise it up on the turn or river if you hit your diamond, jack, or queen.

[/ QUOTE ]

because he has, potentially, 18 outs.

Re: Results
 

lead the turn~

Re: Check or bet the turn? (big draw in the Party 3/6 6m)
 

Wow. I didnt mind the flop cap, but I didnt think it would get u a free turn, yet u were handed a free turn and river.

have to love bad players.

Re: Check or bet the turn? (big draw in the Party 3/6 6m)
 

Betting the turn every time. As soon as you are shown weakness I think you need to bet. That aside, you have half the deck as outs to monsters.

Re: Check or bet the turn? (big draw in the Party 3/6 6m)
 

I'm not really getting why people are saying bet the turn. You capped the flop to get the free turn didn't you? You're not making a better hand fold after all the bets that went into the flop, and unless SB is pretty maniacal I wouldn't imagine your hand is best at the turn very often. Why not check it through and bet a good river?

Re: Check or bet the turn? (big draw in the Party 3/6 6m)
 

i think it is ok to just call the flop

Re: Check or bet the turn? (big draw in the Party 3/6 6m)
 

Dont you think he's got an equity edge to cap the flop for value?

Re: Check or bet the turn? (big draw in the Party 3/6 6m)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dont you think he's got an equity edge to cap the flop for value?

[/ QUOTE ]

On an ordinary flush draw, I agree with just calling. In this case, there's nothing wrong with pumping this when you factor in the overs, flush, straight-flush and straight outs.

Re: Check or bet the turn? (big draw in the Party 3/6 6m)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dont you think he's got an equity edge to cap the flop for value?

[/ QUOTE ]

On an ordinary flush draw, I agree with just calling. In this case, there's nothing wrong with pumping this when you factor in the overs, flush, straight-flush and straight outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

And when just calling the 3-bet there is almost no chance for a freecard, if the turns is a blank, which it is when he capps it. I'll capp that flopp every time.

Re: Results
 

I think your check on the turn was appropriate, and in fact I think you played it well. If UTG had Ad6d or AdKd, which I was thinking one of them may have had as I read the hand as it developed, then your hand was third best on the turn with no chance of either of them folding to a bet. KK was about than 50% to win. Was he looking to check-raise and force out the player caught in the middle? You let him down in that case.

A check on the turn by you, followed by checks by them on the river when the Q hit, told you neither of them had AdKd for a straight. They would not have check-raised the river because they wouldn't be 100% sure you would bet after them. If you had bet the turn and been called by both, what would the Q on the river have meant to you? A made straight?

Anyway, you were paid off. I wonder if that happens if you bet the turn. You end up with the same amount of money perhaps.

Re: Check or bet the turn? (big draw in the Party 3/6 6m)
 

Is anyone adept at math willing to calculate the difference in EV between capping the flop for value and a free card vs. just calling and keeping SB in the lead so you can raise if you hit?

Of course, there are some other factors involved because SB may not lead a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or 9 turn, but assuming he will, what are the EV's of capping and calling the flop?