McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

I'll just post these two for now, then post the rest later after we discuss these.

You are in the first round of a World Poker Tour event. Everyone started with $5,000 in chips. There are two limpers and you are in middle position with the K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. You also decide to limp in. Two other players limp in behind you, and so does the small blind. The big blind checks and seven of you see the flop for $50 each. The flop comes 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. You have two overcards and the king-high flush draw. It is checked to you, you also check, and so does everyone else. The turn card is the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], making your flush. The blinds check and the first limper checks. You decide to make it $300, the last player to act behind you makes it $900, and the original limper then makes it $2,000. You do not know anything about either player. What is your best play? (A) Call. (B) Fold. (C) Move in.

I say barf! Raise preflop with KQs here. you might win the pot right there, and its a pretty solid hand. Also raising usually buys you the button which is also a great thing.

I also say barf to the check on the flop! What is he thinking here? He has a second nut flush draw and two overs. He can make a nice bet here, say 2/3 of the pot and probably take it down. If he gets called, he probably has a lot of outs.

Tom says:
The answer is (B). This early in the tournament with that kind of betting, you are probably up against the nut flush or even possibly a straight flush. You most likely have one of them beat, but not both of them. You have only a small amount invested in this pot, so why risk going broke when you could easily be drawing dead.

I say this is what you get for not raising preflop. In his spot u need to fold, but I think not raising to give Axs a cheap flop was a mistake.

Opinions?

-Scott

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

Agree on raising preflop.

Agree on the fold after the turn.


What's with this guy and calling all these marginal hands preflop. RAISE IT UP! Sheesh.

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

I say, Barf! to raising preflop. I would rather fold KQs than raise. The pot is not worth raising enough to get Axs to fold (given the deep stacks) and now I'm going to be playing a crappy hand for a large pot against likely multiple opponents.

I like McEvoy's line.

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

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I like McEvoy's line.

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I take back all those nice things I said about you yesterday .

Not that I hate his line on this hand, just dont like agreeing with him in general

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

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Not that I hate his line on this hand, just dont like agreeing with him in general

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LOL

Most of the time I don't like agreeing with McEvoy, but I try to comment on the strategy proffered not the author.

I quickly looked through one of TJ & McEvoy's books - "Championship Hold 'em Hands" I think it was - at the bookstore one day because I was bored and annoyed that HOH2 wasn't in yet. Every SINGLE hand I looked at was played terribly. One of the choice pieces was how you should throw KK away most of the time on a 962 rb board because if you get action you are against a set. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

I was in a bookstore a few weeks ago and some young kid (15-16ish) was browsing the poker section. Im watching him pick up all of the 150 McEvoy choices and browse the contents.

Finally, I can't take it. I go over, hand him HOH1, and say, "Trust me, if you are looking to learn how to play No limit tournaments, this book is worth more than all of the rest combined". He gave me a crazy look and walked out with nothing.

I honestly think they wrote that book to try to make the dead money they faced as weak tight as possible.

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

I'm betting he didn't have any money on him.

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

I would also not limp in pre-flop under those conditions. With 2 limpers ahead of you, I would either fold or raise.

Bump!
 

Shameless bump. I'd like to hear more thoughts on this.

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

Again this play seems totally standard to me. I have no idea why everyone wants to raise preflop and bet the flop.

Betting the flop I'm especially opposed to as you are allowing someone to destroy the value of your hand.

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

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I would also not limp in pre-flop under those conditions. With 2 limpers ahead of you, I would either fold or raise.

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This is a terrible way to approach poker. Folding is ridiculous, you don't have to either "be aggressive or get out". Your hand plays well multiway, and it doesn't play well if you get action after making the pot large preflop.

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

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I would also not limp in pre-flop under those conditions. With 2 limpers ahead of you, I would either fold or raise.

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You really think folding is better than limping?

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

What he said.

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

In a high buy-in WPT event folding is probably the best play. But in an online super or similar buy-in I would probably reraise/ push in this situation. agree?

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

Of course in some games/situations not folding the turn would make sense..

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

I raise preflop most of the time. but there's nothing wrong with calling. On the flop its pretty awkward. If you were deeper betting is good to build a pot, if you were shallower betting is good to try and bet-reraise all-in. With 80x there's still soem merit to betting hoping to get it HU and take it down with a turn bet, but generally checking is ok. Turn is completely table dependent.

This hand is a giant meh. Its a stupid quiz hand because the right preflop and flop actions are highly table and image dependent.

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

As usual, I have to agree with Curtains here. This is a PERFECT hand to limp with after others have limped PF. There's almost no reason to be raising here! If you get called, you're in trouble (and possibly out of position). If it gets folded... big deal! The blinds are so tiny at this point that it's not worth the risk.

Just to be clear, I think folding is the worst choice here. When you have the oppurtunity to limp PF for this cheap giving you nearly infinite implied odds to the flop, you HAVE to take it. Even if you plan to fold unless you hit the nut flush or nut straight by the turn... you still have to see the flop.

BTW... I bought McEvoy's/Cloutier's Championship Hold'em last year for a class at college. Never opened it. Is it really that bad? Should I just return the damn thing and get something else? (Already own HoH1 and HoH2).

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

I don't know they fill the books up with very general advice and very little specifics. I basically hated every book I read by McEvoy/Cloutier

Re: Bump!
 

I think there's a fair case for not raising in middle position with the stacks this deep. Making a standard raise (4-5xBB) might buy me the button, but probably won't fold anyone who already limped due to the blinds being so low. I'm not willing to raise more to try to get them to fold because there's nothing in the pot so the risk/reward ratio isn't quite there. Also, with my position there's a chance someone behind me will wake up with a big hand and raise me out of the pot without even seeing the flop. Other problem is that with K high I'm probably not ahead.

After limping I'm not semi-bluffing the flop into 6 other players. Buying a pot with a 2/3 pot bet with this many opponents is just not going to happen. And if one of the players behind me raises, it's a disaster. I'd much rather check to see what happens. A free card is good for me here. If someone bets behind me and gets callers, I am in good position to call for my draw with the additional odds they provide. (Checkraise all-in on the flush+overs is an option too depending on pot-size when it comes back to me but that's a different discussion.)

Edit: BTW, folding preflop for T50 is absolutely ridiculous, the worst of all options.

Re: Bump!
 

I can't imagine ever making a raise after limpers in NL holdem for the sole purpose of "buying the button".

Re: Bump!
 

I think dismissing the idea of raising preflop here is a little narrowminded. The problem with never raising preflop with this category of hands is that you narrow your raising range so much that the times you do raise it becomes very easy for your opponents to play against you. KQs would play fine against a limp calling range from one guy, and playing a medium sized pot against 1-2 opponents in position isn't a bad spot to be in either. Even if its slightly worse from an EV perspective than limping, I think preventing information leaks makes the raise worth it some percentage of the time.

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

Preflop I limp 95%, raise 5%. As played on the flop I'd probably check 70% of the time, bet 30%. And as played on the turn I'm friggin' FOLDING MY 2nd NUT FLUSH!!! UGH! But you have to. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Bump!
 

I'm not dismissing the idea of raising preflop. I don't think its terrible, I just usually don't do it.

Re: Bump!
 

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I'm not dismissing the idea of raising preflop. I don't think its terrible, I just usually don't do it.

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So you've essentially converted JJ in to 44? Doesn't sound like a +EV converstion.

-Scott

Re: Bump!
 

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So you've essentially converted JJ in to 44?

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Wrong thread?

Re: Bump!
 

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I can't imagine ever making a raise after limpers in NL holdem for the sole purpose of "buying the button".

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Even with a hand like KQs that's bound to flop a draw, so position is absolutely critital as to the cost of playing the hand?

I don't understand that.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

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Again this play seems totally standard to me. I have no idea why everyone wants to raise preflop and bet the flop.

Betting the flop I'm especially opposed to as you are allowing someone to destroy the value of your hand.

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Well if you make a healthy raise preflop, you're going to be HU or at most 3 handed. and in THAT situation, I'm betting that flop like 90% of the time.

The essential problem with limping with JJ, then checking the flop is that you're turning in to a hand that has to hit the flop in order for you to scoop the pot. This is terrible IMO.

JJ is a solid hand that wins way more than its share of pots if PLAYED WELL. limping and checking is NOT playing JJ well.

Lets look at a few scenarios:

You raise hard (say 5-6x BB), all but one fold. flop is Kxx. checked to you, you bet, opponent folds, you scoop the pot.

Conversely:

You limp with JJ, 7 to see the flop. flop is Kxx...you're hand is NO GOOD, you check-fold. so instead of scooping a decent pot, you lost. thats a significant swing in chips.

-Scott

Re: Bump!
 

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So you've essentially converted JJ in to 44?

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Wrong thread?

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No, I'm saying he's essentially playing JJ for set value, which is really really weak-tight and all around bad IMO.

-Scott

Re: Bump!
 

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I can't imagine ever making a raise after limpers in NL holdem for the sole purpose of "buying the button".

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I agree, however it was the OP's point that you could win the blinds + limps, and fall on buying the button as a backup which is a "great thing." I was simply pointing out that while you might buy the button, you will certainly not fold out the limpers unless you make a bigger than normal raise. (And I'm not willing to risk a bigger than normal raise with this hand in this position with the stacks this deep, especially because I really want to see the flop.) Buying the button isn't as great a thing as the OP was suggesting.

This isn't to say that raising has no merit. Raising with this relatively strong hand could isolate the limpers, making it much more likely that you can win the pot with a bet on the flop, or that your hand will be best should a K or Q flop.

Raising for the reason of charging Ax[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is incorrect though as (a) you're currently behind to this hand, (b)if a guy with this hand already limped, he's likely to see the flop anyway (unless you make a large raise), (c) the value of your hand is drastically reduced if Ax[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is out there. If for some reason someone had flashed Ax[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] then it might be a fold.

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

I think you're referring to quiz #4, not quiz #5.

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

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The essential problem with limping with JJ, then checking the flop is that you're turning in to a hand that has to hit the flop in order for you to scoop the pot. This is terrible IMO.

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KQs is not JJ. That is the main problem with your analogy. Yes, it is a good hand, but it is likely going to need to improve to win a big pot (or even just to win). If you happen to get a lot of money in (or all-in) preflop with KQs you will generally be worse off than when you do it with JJ.

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You limp with JJ, 7 to see the flop. flop is Kxx...you're hand is NO GOOD, you check-fold. so instead of scooping a decent pot, you lost. thats a significant swing in chips.

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This isn't quite right. When you raise JJ, get 2 callers, and the flop is Kxx, you're going to win a smallish pot or lose a big one. If they all fold preflop, you win a small pot. You should raise JJ preflop most of the time, but the reason isn't in anticipation of a Kxx flop (even though it gives you a chance of still behing ahead on this flop). Whether you raise or limp, you're not looking for a Kxx flop.

Re: Bump!
 

Are you insane? Write a letter to Erick Lindgren about how dumb he was to limp 2nd to act with JJ as well. Note that this time we are facing an UTG raiser, and 2 callers.

Also you are talking about the wrong hand.

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

Why are we talking about limping with JJ? In the other hand mentioned, THE POT WAS RAISED AND CALLED IN TWO PLACES BEFORE US.

Re: Bump!
 

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I can't imagine ever making a raise after limpers in NL holdem for the sole purpose of "buying the button".

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Even with a hand like KQs that's bound to flop a draw, so position is absolutely critital as to the cost of playing the hand?

I don't understand that.

Regards,
Woodguy

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I don't know, I guess I just don't like the phrase. However I've never made a raise after a few limpers with the sole strategic purpose of being last to act for the entire hand. There are always going to be more important reasons to raise if I decide to do so.

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

I don't know. I think this a weak-tight way to play AA. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

I don't mind the limp PF. I think the crime in this hand is not betting the flop hard. Get those summertime hands outa there. I'd like to get this pot heads up w/ TPTK or such. This way I have 15 clean outs. There's no hand you can be drawing dead to. Worse case you're up against AX [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and you have 6 outs, and the opportunity to take the hand away.

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

This flop is likely to have hit somebody, and may have hit somebody fairly hard. If it's been checked to you, checking behind guarantees your seeing the turn. If you bet, you may get reraised out of the hand by someone who is planning a checkraise.

I like a check.

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

How can you fold KQs PF with two limpers?
Do you only play pocket Aces?
It is a WPT tourney. Not a cash game.
I won't fold even in a cash game

Re: McEvoy\'s Cardplayer quiz #5
 

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BTW... I bought McEvoy's/Cloutier's Championship Hold'em last year for a class at college. Never opened it. Is it really that bad? Should I just return the damn thing and get something else? (Already own HoH1 and HoH2).

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I read Championship No Limit & Pot Limit and it screwed me up bad for a long time. If you read it, take everything they say with a grain of salt.

Re: Bump!
 

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Are you insane? Write a letter to Erick Lindgren about how dumb he was to limp 2nd to act with JJ as well. Note that this time we are facing an UTG raiser, and 2 callers.

Also you are talking about the wrong hand.

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I'm confused. are u agreeing with me that u gotta raise JJ here?