Great HU hand for discussion
 

MrWookie has been Sweatin' me while I take shots at the 2/4. We came across this hand and I immediately felt like some or all of my actions were wrong. After some discussion MrWookie got me to wise up on the correct play of things. I felt rather enlightened.

I would like to see what some of our less experienced posters have to say, first.

SB is a LA-P(50 / 19) player who is capable of slowplaying flopped made hands, usually popping them on the Turn. He likes to raise a lot first in, and I certainly expect him to raise here in the SB over calling.



Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (4 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero...

Final Pot: 5 BB

I'd like to see what some of our less experienced posters have to say about this first. Then the veterans can go about making the corrections to the logic.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

hero bets, folds to a raise.

on river (if SB called), if checked to, check. if bet into, fold

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

I'm not sure I have much to offer here, but as you're looking for inexperienced posters...

Based on your line about villain's slow-playing, my first inclination is to take the free card for the flush draw. Then I looked again and saw that if villain has a slow-played A, we're screwed. (Reading the board correctly can be helfpul.)

I'd really like to know if villain would bluff check/raise the turn here.

So anyway, I think the turn might actually give us the best hand and we should bet for value. Since villain is labeled as LA-P, we can safely fold to a check/raise.

EDIT: After thinking some more, (and reading responses) a turn bet is only for value if villain will call with less than Q-high, or fold Q-high.

Here are the options with a turn bet:
1) we bet, villain raises and we have to fold = -1
2) we bet, villain folds = +0
(we gain nothing because we had the better hand anyway)
3) we bet, villain calls = +1
(assumes villain will raise with an A or K)

So the question is: Which of these is more likely? My brain hurts from too much thinking, but I'm tempted to say that checking behind on the turn and calling a river bet is a better play.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

ok im a newbie ish so heres my go:

Check the turn, Either for a check-raise of whatever.

I check behind, your flush draw looks poor now, A/k and you pay up.

So i check behind him, then check/fold river UI.
Then check/call river if i improve to maybe get a bluff and crying call.


so turn: Check behind.
river: check/fold UI ::::: OR IMPROVE ::::&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;::: Check/call/bet

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

Hero is IP this hand, so he'll have a hard time check/folding or check/calling.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

Check the turn, because if he's behind he usually has no outs against you, you're almost never folding a better hand, I expect queen high to call here. I might just call his river bet unless you think he wouldn't bluff here 1 in 6 times. (Bluffing includes betting a counterfeited pocket pair)

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

I don't think "improving" really improves your hand much here. If you have the best hand on the turn you probably have the best hand on the river regardless of whether you catch your flush.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

Why?

he checks, Sb bets, He calls.

Check/call?

I dont follow.. im lost.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

I would check the turn, hoping that Villain will call a river bet.

Here is my thinking:

This is a WA/WB situation in which you are probably WA. If he has an A or K, you are screwed, but if he doesn’t, you have counterfeited any pair he has or will pick up. I believe you are more likely to be ahead since (a) the two Aces and two Kings on the board reduce the chances of him having one in his hand, and (b) your read indicates he would likely slowplay if the board did hit him.

If he doesn’t have an A or K, he will probably fold to a turn bet, so you make nothing more. If you check, he might, sensing weakness, take a shot at the river, although if he is passive he will probably check again. This gives you the opportunity to value bet when he is more likely to call you.

If he does have you beat, you have escaped his trap on the turn. If he bets out on the river, I would call, just in case he is betting with J or T high, or he doesn't understand counterfeiting. If he pops the c/r on the river, you can fold.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

Grunching.

SB's raise preflop doesn't necessarily mean strong hand, he could have been trying to steal. As your read says, it could just be his standard "any two against the BB" move. On the flop, SB again could be trying to steal betting out on the scary flop. He might have a king or trips, but I think he's also likely to have a weaker hand if he was trying to steal.

He probably would not have lead the flop if he was a slow-playing type and had a monster.

So, given that, I say you bet on the turn. You hope he folds right there. If he calls, you have your diamond outs to draw to. You could even get a split pot. If he raises, you call having pot odds to draw to your flush.

I think if you make your flush, it has a good chance of holding up.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

[ QUOTE ]


he checks, Sb bets, He calls.


[/ QUOTE ]

SB acts first on all rounds after the pre-flop actions.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

Im tired and should go bed.

Umm ok check behind, Bet river fold to reraise Oh and if he bets, I *Trys to think* fold.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

I'm thinking your ahead on the flop and turn because of this read:

who is capable of slowplaying flopped made hands, usually popping them on the Turn.

If the flop bet came from an A, wouldn't he 3bet the flop here or check flop hoping to c/r turn?

However the potential for a c/r turn is very high here and I probably take the free showdown if he'll give it to you.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think if you make your flush, it has a good chance of holding up.

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Whether you make your flush or not is irrelevant. It won't change the probability of having the best hand much at all. Either you opponent has an ace/a king, or he doesn't. If he does, a flush won't help you. If he doesn't, then you have the best hand and your opponent is drawing to at most 4 outs (gutshot).

I think I might check here and call the river no matter what card falls. Only because our opponent is drawing mighty slim or dead if he's behind so I don't mind giving a free card too much. Then when we show weakness perhaps we can pick off a bluff.

Disclaimer: advice from newbie.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

I don't like the flop raise - you're rarely getting a free card on this board. Since you did, you should definitely take it and call the river. If your Q high is good he's drawing dead.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the flop raise - you're rarely getting a free card on this board.

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Flop raise is not just about a free card.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

This is probably a case where you should bet the turn in a big pot and check in a small pot. If he doesn't have a pocket/QJ/QT/JT he is drawing dead to a split. So if the pot were 15 BB, you would like for him to fold his T9 since he 7 outs to a chop and should call you if he knew what you had.

The flop raise is also pretty silly IMO for the same reason. If he has something like T9 or T8 and is drawing super thin, just let him keep betting at the pot. You don't want him to fold a 2-outer on the flop in a small pot. And since he isn't going to fold a better hand here, the only thing a raise does is weed out the hands that have no shot. Again this is okay when the pot is big, but it is better to just let him keep betting when the pot is small.

Side note: If you had 32 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] then a flop raise makes more sense. He would be making a mistake if he folds Q9 or 87 or whatever.

Brad

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

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I don't like the flop raise - you're rarely getting a free card on this board.

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Flop raise is not just about a free card.

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Please enlighten me.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

[ QUOTE ]
hero bets, folds to a raise.

on river (if SB called), if checked to, check. if bet into, fold

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I'm anxious to hear why you choose this line.

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I'd really like to know if villain would bluff check/raise the turn here.

So anyway, I think the turn might actually give us the best hand and we should bet for value. Since villain is labeled as LA-P, we can safely fold to a check/raise.

EDIT: After thinking some more, (and reading responses) a turn bet is only for value if villain will call with less than Q-high, or fold Q-high.

Here are the options with a turn bet:
1) we bet, villain raises and we have to fold = -1
2) we bet, villain folds = +0
(we gain nothing because we had the better hand anyway)
3) we bet, villain calls = +1
(assumes villain will raise with an A or K)

So the question is: Which of these is more likely? My brain hurts from too much thinking, but I'm tempted to say that checking behind on the turn and calling a river bet is a better play.

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I looked over villians hands that I had seen him play(only 100 or so, and only about 25 of those made it to showdown)

I don't think villian is capable of CR bluffing here, but I do believe he is capable of bet/ calling an A or a K here and CR'sing the Turn w/ either one.

You left one out BTW, what happens when we check?

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I don't like the flop raise - you're rarely getting a free card on this board. Since you did, you should definitely take it and call the river. If your Q high is good he's drawing dead.

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Shadow is right, HU that Flop raise is about more than a free card. Villian raised pre-flop and I just called. HU that's an invitation for him to bet anything here. Given the texture of the flop it is less likely that he has hit anything(only 5 cards he can have that actually hit) and if he had hit it, I still had outs to beat him.

My original line was to Raise the Flop with the flush draw. Bet any Turn and call a raise(I have good odds to the flush draw) and Fold River if he had raised UI. The K wasn't really accounted for in the "any turn" category though.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is probably a case where you should bet the turn in a big pot and check in a small pot. If he doesn't have a pocket/QJ/QT/JT he is drawing dead to a split. So if the pot were 15 BB, you would like for him to fold his T9 since he 7 outs to a chop and should call you if he knew what you had.

The flop raise is also pretty silly IMO for the same reason. If he has something like T9 or T8 and is drawing super thin, just let him keep betting at the pot. You don't want him to fold a 2-outer on the flop in a small pot. And since he isn't going to fold a better hand here, the only thing a raise does is weed out the hands that have no shot. Again this is okay when the pot is big, but it is better to just let him keep betting when the pot is small.

Side note: If you had 32 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] then a flop raise makes more sense. He would be making a mistake if he folds Q9 or 87 or whatever.

Brad

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This is very interesting Shillx, I hadn't thought about the size of the pot(ERRRR...Big NoNo) when I decided to Raise. If we know villian will call one more back with anything hoping to catch a pair on the Turn, would that make it any less of a mistake?

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

actually i relooked at it and changed my mind
i would do the same on the turn (trying to make an extra bet from an idiot calling with some crap that he doesnt realize don't help him)

on river, if checked to, i bet. if he bets, i fold

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

I think it would depend on how many hands I had on the LAP read. If it was over 100 I definitely bet here. If not I probably take the free card and cuss under my breath as I call the river bet. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is probably a case where you should bet the turn in a big pot and check in a small pot. If he doesn't have a pocket/QJ/QT/JT he is drawing dead to a split. So if the pot were 15 BB, you would like for him to fold his T9 since he 7 outs to a chop and should call you if he knew what you had.

The flop raise is also pretty silly IMO for the same reason. If he has something like T9 or T8 and is drawing super thin, just let him keep betting at the pot. You don't want him to fold a 2-outer on the flop in a small pot. And since he isn't going to fold a better hand here, the only thing a raise does is weed out the hands that have no shot. Again this is okay when the pot is big, but it is better to just let him keep betting when the pot is small.

Side note: If you had 32 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] then a flop raise makes more sense. He would be making a mistake if he folds Q9 or 87 or whatever.

Brad

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I think I mostly see your point, but, for the sake of debate, what about trying to fold 55? Do you just not see him folding that at all?

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

***Less Experienced [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

After cussing at the screen I would probably bet again on the turn and fold to a raise or check behind on the river.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

bets. if there's ever a counterfitted pocket pair, this is it.

I would show this hand down.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

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I don't like the flop raise - you're rarely getting a free card on this board. Since you did, you should definitely take it and call the river. If your Q high is good he's drawing dead.

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Shadow is right, HU that Flop raise is about more than a free card. Villian raised pre-flop and I just called. HU that's an invitation for him to bet anything here. Given the texture of the flop it is less likely that he has hit anything(only 5 cards he can have that actually hit) and if he had hit it, I still had outs to beat him.

My original line was to Raise the Flop with the flush draw. Bet any Turn and call a raise(I have good odds to the flush draw) and Fold River if he had raised UI. The K wasn't really accounted for in the "any turn" category though.

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Agreed, I didn't mean to say he has a hand because he bet the flop.
If he doesn't have anything he's not going to pay you off when you hit your flush though; and if he does have something you just put in more bets than equity can justify HU, even though your draw is strong.
Those were my initial simplified thoughts. Of course there are 100 other mitigating factors involved that may or may not make a raise more appealing, which I really don't feel like getting into. HU play can be quite complex.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

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After thinking some more, (and reading responses) a turn bet is only for value if villain will call with less than Q-high, or fold Q-high.

Here are the options with a turn bet:
1) we bet, villain raises and we have to fold = -1
2) we bet, villain folds = +0
(we gain nothing because we had the better hand anyway)
3) we bet, villain calls = +1
(assumes villain will raise with an A or K)

So the question is: Which of these is more likely? My brain hurts from too much thinking, but I'm tempted to say that checking behind on the turn and calling a river bet is a better play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I looked over villians hands that I had seen him play(only 100 or so, and only about 25 of those made it to showdown)

I don't think villian is capable of CR bluffing here, but I do believe he is capable of bet/ calling an A or a K here and CR'sing the Turn w/ either one.

You left one out BTW, what happens when we check?


[/ QUOTE ]
You're right - I was only thinking of what happens with the bet. With your new information, a check seems even better. Since villain doesn't seem to go to showdown much, a worse hand will fold so a bet is no longer for value.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

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on river, if checked to, i bet.

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Why? What better hand is folding? What worse hand is calling?

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

#3027652 have you played at party poker? they call down with anything [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

perhaps it is the case then that you check behind him when a 10, J or Q hit that is not a diamond.

Perhaps this is my overaggressiveness taking over, I'm trying to tone it down a bit tho.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

Bet/fold unless SB is capable of a checkraise bluff on the turn. If he is capable of checkraising the turn, you might as well check if he won't call without at least a Queen. If he likes to go to showdown without a good hand, then bet.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bet/fold unless SB is capable of a checkraise bluff on the turn. If he is capable of checkraising the turn, you might as well check if he won't call without at least a Queen. If he likes to go to showdown without a good hand, then bet.

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What will a player like this do on the river if we check here?

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

How often does villian attempt to steal blinds? It seems to me that there is no way you are going to semi-bluff him/her out of pot. You have 9 outs to the nut flush...Against any other player i would raise, but since you stated that the vilian tends to check raise i would take the free card.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is probably a case where you should bet the turn in a big pot and check in a small pot. If he doesn't have a pocket/QJ/QT/JT he is drawing dead to a split. So if the pot were 15 BB, you would like for him to fold his T9 since he 7 outs to a chop and should call you if he knew what you had.

The flop raise is also pretty silly IMO for the same reason. If he has something like T9 or T8 and is drawing super thin, just let him keep betting at the pot. You don't want him to fold a 2-outer on the flop in a small pot. And since he isn't going to fold a better hand here, the only thing a raise does is weed out the hands that have no shot. Again this is okay when the pot is big, but it is better to just let him keep betting when the pot is small.

Side note: If you had 32 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] then a flop raise makes more sense. He would be making a mistake if he folds Q9 or 87 or whatever.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

I got to thinking about what you said shillx.

In response to the flop raise, I think it's correct, as I have never seen SB show a willingness to Bet/ Fold. I'm almost positive he will call 1 more with any two on the off chance he hits a pair and we don't have anything.

But this has me thinking about my original line. The one where I bet any turn. A bet on the turn is likely to scare him away when he doesn't improve. If we raise the flop, I'm not seeing much value in a Turn bet at all, regardless of whether we improve or not.

What do you think of this for a line here:

Raise the flop; Check any turn Improved or UI, raise the river when we improve.

My only qualms with this hand is what to do UI.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

first off, his raise to me could be a variety of hands, probably raising with any pocket pairs or any high card. i would take his flop bet as a standard agressive bet backing up his preflop raise. i think i would bet the turn and see how he reacts. if he c/r then i think it would be a safe fold. if he calls then i probably would take a free showdown if given the opportunity b/c he could very well bet the flop with a pair of kings. besides, i think betting the turn as a bluff is your best shot of winning as he could fold right there. sure you can check the turn as he might lead the river but i would even pay that one bet for information and the possibility of winning w/a Q kicker, but i think betting the turn has the greatest EV. im not even sure if you make your flush that you can bet the river for value.

Re: Great HU hand for discussion
 

nice post though, im too tired thinking about it. hope to read more insightful things on this post later.