Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

I was castigated for making that statement on another thread and quickly backtracked to avoid a side issue being debated.

Subhuman or not, they are complete imbeciles. At least if I understand the subject correctly.

Although I have implied otherwise at times, the fact is that believing in astrology is even worse than believing in a specfic religion. One reason of course is that religions usually come with moral implications while astrology doesn't. The other reason is that, if I'm not mistaken, astrology makes specific claims and those claims have been completely refuted.

I believe that statistical studies have been made about the validity of any predictions made by astrologers and the results are no better than chance would predict. When astologers are asked to guess what sign a person is based on meeting them and assessing their personalities, they are right one in twelve. The underlying thoery of astrology, the change in gravity due to the alignment of the planets and the stars, is nonsensical since that gravity has less force than the computer you are sitting in front of.

Now if someone just has a sort of fun time with astrology while never being told about the scientific refutations they are not subhuman or even necessarily stupid. But what about those who seriously cling to these beliefs in spite of the overwhelming evidence against it which they are aware of? (Again I stress that I am not an expert on astrology or its researchers. So if there is a serious factual error, this whole post is irrelevant).

A serious devotee of astrology, who is aware of the science and the statistics, deserves contempt and a bad name. Perhaps subhuman is not the right word. But something similar is, in my opinion. To show how strongly I feel about this subject I will say that I would never marry someone who fully believed in astrology regardless of the evidence. To make it even more clear, if I had to choose between my son being an astrology believer all his life or a heroin addict all his life, I would choose the latter. (Anticipating your next question I would choose Catholicism over heroin for him, but not Born Again Christianity).

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

Arbeit Macht Frei!

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

This is one of my favorite posts ever.

-SmileyEH

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

Wow,
Some emotion there. I have not seen the studies concerned. Usually in this sort of debate studies on both sides exist.
From a human point of view it would be very unusual if no studies existed that supported astrology. No matter how wacko an idea is, an appropriate misunderstanding of statistical analysis can usually be applied to support it.

Just to give you some more ammo against fundie christians like me tho': It's worth noting that Melancthon one of the Lutheran fathers believed in Astrology, and that in the Book of Job the bible appears to make clear reference to astrology.

The bit about heroin addicts is a little dubious. I have had the misfortune to meet one or two (since deceased) and would not wish this for anyones future.

While as a christian I might suggest that astrology could lead you into the occult and get your soul damned or something, I observe that heroin appears ultimately to remove the soul/humanity of the addict.

I note also that "all his life" is likely to refer to a very different timespans in the two references you make to it, perhaps you considered this in your evaluation of the relative utility of the two activities.

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

anyone who beilves strongly in anything that has been overwhelming refuted is an idiot. For example, people who think online poker is rigged (this is a special case cause even if they were 100% correct they are idiots for continuing to play). Simple logic shows that online poker is clearly not rigged (as well as overwhelming evidence from statistics).

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

I wouldn't say that Astrology Devotees are SubHuman. They are however quite an irrational lot more commonly known as women.

I have never known a man to lend any credence to astrology. On the other hand I have known many women who believe in this crap to varying degrees.

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't say that Astrology Devotees are SubHuman. They are however quite an irrational lot more commonly known as women.

I have never known a man to lend any credence to astrology. On the other hand I have known many women who believe in this crap to varying degrees.

[/ QUOTE ]

women lack logic. I would like to hear sklansky's pov on women and logic. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

Three questions:

if heroin is illegal should astrology also be illegal?

What punishment would you advocate for astrology pushers?

Did you once go back for your bag and regret it?

chez

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

they are imbeciles, but they are also no different from people who believe the bible is the literal word of god.

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

There is one extremely small chance of some validity to astrology.

Those born in September are likely to be the oldest in their school class when growing up, and more mature. Those born in May and June are more likely to be the youngest and less mature. How being younger/older than those you are around probably does have some affect. There have been studies that noted that eldest siblings have some traits (such as being leaders and rebels more often), while middle children have others, and youngest siblings have other traits more often. The effects within a single year are less apparent. But it might have some effects.

So the astrologists might get some things correct just out of dumb luck, even though their reasoning is completely bogus.

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

I once had a nice jewish girlfriend whose sister was a 2200 rated tournament chess player and whose father was some kind of financial genius. Unfortunately she was a hard core Astrologer/Numerologist with a specialty in numerology. She was very nice in every way except for how she brought numerology into everything we did. "Oh did you see the 17 leaves on the 9th branch of that tree? Do you know what THAT means"? I quickly found this intollerable. However I would have much preferred her for a girlfriend than a practicing heroin addict.

From what I've seen of serious Astrology Practitioners they seem little harmed by it. They are happy in their little circles of fellow believers. They certainly will never go anyplace in reputable academia but they aren't likely to die of hot doses, dirty needles, or unusually common obstruction of the bowels.

I do not know if they have reasonable answers to the statistical studies. I imagine they come up with something that takes the discussion out of the realm of hard science and into the realm of mysticism, but I'm no expert. If the language they use is understood as mystical rather than scientific then they are like any other religion. If they insist they have science that contradicts evidence then the psychological state they are in is either strange or dishonest or maybe strangely dishonest. Whatever it is, they seem to enjoy it and people seem attracted to it.

Here's the thing though. Just as I could not tollerate a girlfriend who constantly brought numerology into everything, I doubt I could tollerate a girlfriend who constantly brought technical issues of logic and EV into everything. Sometimes it's healthy to give logic a rest and engage in a little whimsy. Some people like that direction so much they devote themselves to it, study it, develop it, teach it, and live it. There is much more to being a human being than logic and EV. Part of humanity's strength is the way different people specialize in different aspects of the human condition. Sitting on top of the tower of your specialty and calling those exhibiting other aspects of the human condition subhuman, or imbiciles, just shows a lack of understanding of what it means to be human.

PairTheBoard

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

"Sometimes it's healthy to give logic a rest and engage in a little whimsy."

Listen carefully because this is very important. Logic and whimsy are not about the same stuff. Being "logical" is not the same thing as being "sensible". It is simply a procedure that makes sure that two statements do not contradict each other. It makes no claim as to which statement is true, if either is. It simply will sometimes point out that they can't both be true using rules of deduction that YOU agree to.

Almost no one will adhere to blatently contradictory ideas. Zero Mexicans bowl well. My friend Jose averages 220. My friend Jose is Mexican. Anyone would feel ridiculous saying those three things. However when the chain of reasoning connecting two thoughts, indisputable as it may be, is sufficiently long and/or complex, people, especially those weak in logic, will sometimes hold to both thoughts even when they are as contradictory as the Mexican example. Yet the only difference is the complexity of the proof. And again we are specifying that the rules governing the chain of reasoning are agreed to even by those who have trouble following along.

The bottom line is that how logical and how whimsical you are need not be related. If you believe in the tooth fairy you are not being illogical. Unless you also believe in other facts that will lead to (using rules of deduction that you agree to) the non existence of such tooth fairy.

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

Belief in astrology can be very damaging. If your only exposure to astrology is the horoscopes in the newspaper, then it may seem like it only makes vague, mostly positive predictions. But this is not universally true. Sometimes astrologers make very specific and very negative predictions. This can cause serious emotional trauma to the subject of the prediction (if they believe in it, of course).

There are entire cultures that believe in astrology. They teach it to their children from a very young age. As the children get older, especially those of the current generation who are exposed to more of the world, they often realize that those beliefs are hogwash. But I'd bet that most of them -- even those that are mathematical/logical geniuses -- are affected by those old beliefs in some way or another, perhaps subconsciously.

Maybe in America, astrology is all about people believing in silly stuff because they're imbeciles. But in general, this is a much bigger issue than that.

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

[ QUOTE ]

A serious devotee of astrology, who is aware of the science and the statistics, deserves contempt and a bad name. Perhaps subhuman is not the right word. But something similar is, in my opinion. To show how strongly I feel about this subject I will say that I would never marry someone who fully believed in astrology regardless of the evidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

If evidence proved that astrology was correct, you still wouldn't marry someone? That seems a bit silly.

I think the basic premise of astrology actually has a lot of validity. The premise being that there are 12 archetypes of humanity, and out of those twelve there is a ratio that relates to the planetary alignment and the nature of the person being born.

The Greeks for instance showed that there was a relationship between the diatonic scale and the number of planets in our solar system. To spare the boring scholarly details, the conclusion was that in essence the cosmos was music. Now I'll take a leap of faith and assume that you understand the relationship between music and math. If these relationships do indeed exist (math,music,planets), then how is it not conceivable that there may be a relationship that can be explained about the nature of particular human archetypes based on planetary alignment.

I think where the whole astrology thing (at least in modern times) falls apart in that it's quite difficult to collate all this data into a systematic and understandable system. There are so many people INTERPRETING this data based on their own loose experience, that it becomes quite skewed an inaccurate.

I consider myself a fairly rational person, but I definitely wouldn't rule out the fact that astrology, if accurately understood, could indeed be quite valid. Do I think most of it is today? No. Yet some of the ancient readings are quite interesting, especially Tibetan astrology for example.

It's quite unfortunate that you're closing your mind so quickly to the possibility of truth. Wouldn't it be better to claim ignorance, and be open to learning something new?

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

Are you disparaging Ron and Nancy Reagan?

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

[ QUOTE ]

The Greeks for instance showed that there was a relationship between the diatonic scale and the number of planets in our solar system.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are at least 9 planets in our solar system and only 8 notes in the diatonic scale.

What's the relation? What proof is there that if there is a relation, it's not casual?

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you disparaging Ron and Nancy Reagan?

[/ QUOTE ]

And Mexican bowlers too?

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

Don't you see that you've just demonstrated the wisdom of Pair the Board's post?

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

"if I had to choose between my son being an astrology believer all his life or a heroin addict all his life, I would choose the latter."

How sad. Even sadder because you're not even sure you understand astrology correctly.

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

I wonder if David voted for Reagan the second time, after it was revealed that he made some decisions based on the advice of Nancy's astrologer.

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

"The Greeks for instance showed that there was a relationship between the diatonic scale and the number of planets in our solar system."

How can that relationship have been accurate, since the Greeks did not know the number of planets in our solar system (and there is disagreement today about the correct number)?

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The Greeks for instance showed that there was a relationship between the diatonic scale and the number of planets in our solar system.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are at least 9 planets in our solar system and only 8 notes in the diatonic scale.

What's the relation? What proof is there that if there is a relation, it's not casual?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pluto's not a planet. It's a SubPlanet, also known as an Imbecile Planet.

PairTheBoard

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

DS --
"If you believe in the tooth fairy you are not being illogical. "

Now you're talking DS.

PTB

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

I read something recently about a Tenth planet, beyond pluto. And perhaps more planets are lurking about in the darkness awaiting discoverey by better and more accurate insturments or procedures.

-Zeno

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

Been reading any P.G. Wodehouse?

-Zeno

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The Greeks for instance showed that there was a relationship between the diatonic scale and the number of planets in our solar system.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are at least 9 planets in our solar system and only 8 notes in the diatonic scale.

What's the relation? What proof is there that if there is a relation, it's not casual?

[/ QUOTE ]

Excuse my mis-step, I meant there was a relationship between the diatonic scale and the distance of the planets. I've been half asleep today. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] There should be tons of info on the web about this.

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

Great post.

When people ask my star sign I always give them the wrong one. It's amusing to watch them make total fools of themselves analyzing my 'Leo' personality (I'm actually a libra - we're known to be tricky [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ).

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Been reading any P.G. Wodehouse?

-Zeno

[/ QUOTE ]

First I've heard of him. I googled to see what he's about. Sounds like a fun read but probably over my head. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

PairTheBoard

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

[ QUOTE ]
To make it even more clear, if I had to choose between my son being an astrology believer all his life or a heroin addict all his life, I would choose the latter. (Anticipating your next question I would choose Catholicism over heroin for him, but not Born Again Christianity).

[/ QUOTE ]

Astrology is bad but not that bad, I would rather have a son who was a Astrology believer than a heroin addict, as for Catholics.......well heroin is bad but not that bad.

Mack

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

"To show how strongly I feel about this subject I will say that I would never marry someone who fully believed in astrology regardless of the evidence."


"If evidence proved that astrology was correct, you still wouldn't marry someone? That seems a bit silly."

In case you are not joking, I meant that they believed in astrology regardless of the evidence aginst astrology.

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The Greeks for instance showed that there was a relationship between the diatonic scale and the number of planets in our solar system.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are at least 9 planets in our solar system and only 8 notes in the diatonic scale.

What's the relation? What proof is there that if there is a relation, it's not casual?

[/ QUOTE ]

Excuse my mis-step, I meant there was a relationship between the diatonic scale and the distance of the planets. I've been half asleep today. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] There should be tons of info on the web about this.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no "the" diatonic scale. A diatonic scale is just a scale with 8 tones, where the eighth tone is the octave of the first. Major and Minor scales fall into this category (blues and pentatonics, for example, do not).

I'm pretty certain that the distance between the planets is exponential. If that's the case, I cannot imagine any possible relation between those distances and any scale playable by any western/classical instrument.

In distances, the major scale would be: 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 1. The minor is similar: 2, 1, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2.

It's going to be really hard for a diatonic scale to get exponential. You've got 12 steps in there and you need to hit 8 distinct tones.

So in other words, this sounds like hogwash to me.

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

"if I had to choose between my son being an astrology believer all his life or a heroin addict all his life, I would choose the latter."

"How sad. Even sadder because you're not even sure you understand astrology correctly."

Do I have to spell out that the statement is going under the assumption that astrology is what I think it is? Cmon. I should spell out though that I'm talking about a heroin addiction that doesn't completely rob you of your faculties and the ability to think straight. I've known people like that. I wasn't talking about living on the streets of the Bowery barely remembering your name.

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Do I have to spell out that the statement is going under the assumption that astrology is what I think it is? Cmon. I should spell out though that I'm talking about a heroin addiction that doesn't completely rob you of your faculties and the ability to think straight. I've known people like that. I wasn't talking about living on the streets of the Bowery barely remembering your name.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying you'd rather have a generally logical son who's addicted to heroin rather than an idiot of a son who buys into astrology?

If that's the case, I can understand where you're coming from; you can kick an addiction, but idiocy lasts a lifetime. That isn't made too clear in your first post, however.

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Listen carefully because this is very important. Logic and whimsy are not about the same stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Sometimes it's healthy to give logic a rest and engage in a little whimsy. Some people like that direction so much they devote themselves to it, study it, develop it, teach it, and live it. There is much more to being a human being than logic and EV. Part of humanity's strength is the way different people specialize in different aspects of the human condition. Sitting on top of the tower of your specialty and calling those exhibiting other aspects of the human condition subhuman, or imbiciles, just shows a lack of understanding of what it means to be human."

Pair is telling you that despite having learned a high of math at an early age, you can still put your pocket protector and slide-rule down once in awhile and not be so wound up.

I however, believe that you are just trolling for amusement. You have no further ideas for books. You are bored from playing your 140+ IQ level cash games. You play tournaments just to help market 2+2.

So all you have left to do is to troll. And troll well, I might add [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

the construction of our society seems to condone various types of distractions from reality. astrology seems to be one of these distractions.

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

David,

You must be a Leo or a Virgo. This kind of thinking is typical of them.

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

Honeslty, heroin addicts in their most depraved state aren't that upsetting once you've seen someone try and quit methadone.

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

Astology is not all bad...

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

[ QUOTE ]
To make it even more clear, if I had to choose between my son being an astrology believer all his life or a heroin addict all his life, I would choose the latter. (Anticipating your next question I would choose Catholicism over heroin for him, but not Born Again Christianity .)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the most disturbing statement of all.

Re: Are Astrology Devotees SubHuman?
 

Let's assume astrology is what you (and I) think it is. Namely, ridiculous, and shows an illogical mind at work. I still think it's sad that a father would condemn his son to heroin addiction than to have him think illogically about something. I imagine you would say that thinking illogically about astrology would mean that surely the person so thinking would also have to think illogically about other things as well. It ain't necessarily so. And, if it is necessarily so, so what? Many people who don't think as logically as you live happy, productive, satisfyng, generous lives. There are also many people who think logically but proceed from false precepts who live unhappy, unproductive, unsatisfying, selfish lives. The ability to think logically, I agree, is more important than most people consider it to be. But it's not anywhere near as important as you consider it to be. The fact that you would rather have your son addicted to heroin is defense exhibit A.

I'd much rather have a son with Tommy Angeloitis than David Sklanskyitis.