Commerce 20-40NL
 

i have ~12K.
EP is a very good aggressive player, ~18K
LP is a relatively unknown, no real read, ~10K.

i limp with 2-2 in MP, LP raises to $340, five callers to me i call.

flop A-5-5 rainbow.

checked around.

turn 2 (A-5-5).

checked to me i bet $700, LP (pfr) makes it $1900,
folded around to EP who sits up straight in his chair, asks us both for chip counts, then makes it $4000.

Re: Commerce 20-40NL
 

I can only see you somehow winning against AK and 34, but I think A5 or AA is in there somewhere.

Re: Commerce 20-40NL
 

tough spot!

Only hand that makes sense to me for PFR is AA (what else would he check the flop with?)

Is his open raise to 340 standard for this game?


looks like EP has at least 1 five, possibly 2.


If there is a ever a good spot to fold an underfull, I think it is here.

Re: Commerce 20-40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]

i limp with 2-2 in MP, LP raises to $340, five callers to me i call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Five callers to you at 8.5x the BB? This may be the loosest game I have ever seen. The only person who likely has AA is the preflop raiser. If that's the case, why would he raise 8.5x the BB? (unless that's the standard raise at your table).

The good player in early position could be making a squeeze play based on his read of the late position player with any 5 (would he be more likely to have 56s or A5s?).

I have a hard time thinking you are behind...unless that LP player has AA. I just don't get the $340 preflop raise with AA.

Re: Commerce 20-40NL
 

I just can't see someone not having A5 here. You said the EP is a very good aggressive player. Does that mean he'll three-bet with air? This is one of those hands in my opinion, where you hit your two-outer against your best interest because it only enticed you to stay in a pot that you were not meant to be in. Unless you have a specific read that suggests that EP is trying to make a move, then I would be done with this hand.

Re: Commerce 20-40NL
 

it's between a push and a fold. i dont like calling b/c you have mr. pfr behind you, and you're calling an allin on a non-Ace non-5 river anyways.

EP is aggro but good, so IMO either he's been building an aggro image to show AA here, or he's trying to take it down with AK/KK/QQ or air.

i have no clue of LP's holdings (minraise could mean anything from 55 to a bluff), which is why it's fold or push.

Re: Commerce 20-40NL
 

Six people see a flop for 8.5X BB. You bet 1/3 of the pot. You get raised 1/3 of the pot. Checkraiser makes a 1/2 pot size reraise.

You sure this wasn't a live 1/2 NL game?

The action is so strange (through the raise to 1900) that the EP is either:
1. building the perfect pot size to stack either of you on the river
2. trying to steal this

What hands would he slow play this board to such an extent (check flop, check turn)? Of course he would do this with quads or A5 (he can not have AA considering his preflop action).

So he either slowplayed a true monster and is building a pot the correct size to stack you guys, or he thinks you guys are both splashing around (1/3 pot size bets and raises could have put that idea in his head) and is trying to steal this. He has the added benefit of using the squeeze play on you (as was mentioned by another poster).

Personally, I give in to his pressure and fold. Although your 1/3 pot size bet (terrible) with an underfull served to muddy the waters for all involved, I really don't think you should continue with this hand. You are in a bad spot.

Re: Commerce 20-40NL
 

I don't think this hand is worth $12,000 to show down. There is not a question that this turn is an easy fold.

Jeff

Re: Commerce 20-40NL
 

May just be the best NL game in the world.

Fold. Even though, in that game, they may both have air.

Re: Commerce 20-40NL
 

This is a very easy fold, isn't it?

As for the person who said they couldn't see A5, um look at those stacks and a 6way pot, A5s is a really easy call.

Re: Commerce 20-40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a very easy fold, isn't it?


[/ QUOTE ]

That was my immediate reaction, but then I realized that hero could actually be ahead here.

Look at it this way. The pot is 51 BB on the flop! A paired board is checked around by 6 people. Then a MP player throws out a 17.5 BB bet when a DEUCE hits.

I agree with you that this is a fold. I am just saying that it is possible that EP was not overly impressed with the "strength" shown by the bettor and raiser.

In other words, if hero bets 3/4 pot, raiser bumps it up 3/4 pot higher, and then EP comes over the top after initially checking, you can fold the underfull 100 times out of 100. This is not what happened.

I agree it is a fold, just not the clear slam dunk it would normally be.

Re: Commerce 20-40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
i have ~12K.
EP is a very good aggressive player, ~18K
LP is a relatively unknown, no real read, ~10K.

i limp with 2-2 in MP, LP raises to $340, five callers to me i call.

flop A-5-5 rainbow.

checked around.

turn 2 (A-5-5).

checked to me i bet $700, LP (pfr) makes it $1900,
folded around to EP who sits up straight in his chair, asks us both for chip counts, then makes it $4000.

[/ QUOTE ]

It sucks, but I think you gotta lay this down. You're stuck in between the pfr, who checked a paired, ace-high board in position, and then raised the turn (would he raise the turn w/ KK in a five-way pot? Would he check that flop w/ AK?), and a good, aggro player who by your account seems delighted by all the action he's seeing.

Unless the game is really *that* good, I just can't see at least A5 not being out there, if not AA or quad fives . . .

Re: Commerce 20-40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
i have ~12K.
EP is a very good aggressive player, ~18K
LP is a relatively unknown, no real read, ~10K.

i limp with 2-2 in MP, LP raises to $340, five callers to me i call.

flop A-5-5 rainbow.

checked around.

turn 2 (A-5-5).

checked to me i bet $700, LP (pfr) makes it $1900,
folded around to EP who sits up straight in his chair, asks us both for chip counts, then makes it $4000.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is real tough. I've got no answers. Interested to see other comments though.

Re: Commerce 20-40NL
 

I don't think it's possible for EP to have AA here. A good, aggressive player, limp calling AA? With 4 limpers behind him? If PFR does have AA how is EP making it 4k? With 55?

PFR has done nothing to worry us really. He is much more likely to have AK and fold on the turn. There's no way he's calling EP's raise with AK is there? If there is you might call and bring him along, softening the times when EP has you beat. The only hand I can see EP having you beat with is 55 or A5s. Wouldn't he do this with 56,45s, or would he not limp them up front? Maybe he thought someone would bet the ace on the flop?

Re: Commerce 20-40NL
 

Post-oak, I was actually going to comment that I loved hero's turn bet size. In the rare situation where you bet 3/4, are raised 3/4, and then are re-raised again, yes, betting larger is better because then the ep guy would be all-in and you could easily fold. But this is extremely rare, most of the time you're going to want to keep the pot small because you could be crushed and stacks are deep, but still goad an ace or a 5 into calling you. The pot is already ballooning out of control as it is, hero can't stand much more if he pots it.

I fold here as well. You might be able to call if you pick up any physical reads. Calling is ok because EP provides some nice protection against the LP raiser. (All-in is the worst I think) But given your description this does not look like a steal but 2 guys ready to go to war. It's possible LP has AK and decided to play a little unconventionally, but I can't see this being a steal from EP, unless he's very lag/tricky which you didn't mention ... he'd probably lead the turn with anything you beat (trip 5s etc.) On the other hand, if he really did have a monster, would he have put himself in a situation where he so clearly defines his hand?

btw how many people was LP raising to start the hand off with?

Re: Commerce 20-40NL
 

I don't know that I would fold here. I'd like to think I would and I think it would be prudent and a good idea to fold, but there is also a strong chance that hero is ahead here.

I mean, out of the range of hands, if LP has AK (very possible to check that flop w/AK) and EP has something like 56s (also very possible to slow play on the rainbow flop) hero could EASILY be ahead. However, those are the only hands out of the range that would make hero the winner for now, that LP was slowplaying AK and EP slowplaying trips. Given that there are so many other possibilities of hands, and the possibility of being outdrawn even if ahead, I think this is a fold... but it would not surprise me one big if hero laid down the winner.

Re: Commerce 20-40NL
 

i folded pretty quickly and without much hesitation.
this would be a pretty bad spot for the EP to bluff at.
i immediately ruled out AA for EP as there is no way he smooth calls the preflop raise, and i while A-5 is a possiblity, i thought it was much more likely he had flopped quads.

the LP really was representing AA by checking the flop then raising the turn, and so i think EP thought he had a good chance of stacking him off.

it turned out that the LP folded, and Kenny (for those of you familiar with the game) did in fact have quads.

he told me after the hand he really put me on 2-2 and thought i'd push the turn.

Re: Commerce 20-40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
he told me after the hand he really put me on 2-2 and thought i'd push the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

What would you have done had he just called? I think he played his hand really horribly.

Re: Commerce 20-40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
i folded pretty quickly and without much hesitation.

[/ QUOTE ]

duh!
i meant folded pretty quickly and without much contemplation.

Re: Commerce 20-40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
What would you have done had he just called? I think he played his hand really horribly.

[/ QUOTE ]

you know honestly, even if he would of just called i would have tried to get to showdown without putting in another dime.

i mean what possible hands can he be colding calling with?
i know this guy and if he had a naked five he would have led the flop trying to break AK.
and after a bet and raise i don't think he's coming with 3-4, so he must have a boat, and mine is the worst boat possible.

Re: Commerce 20-40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]

i know this guy and if he had a naked five he would have led the flop trying to break AK.
and after a bet and raise i don't think he's coming with 3-4, so he must have a boat, and mine is the worst boat possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

great read. thanks for teasing all of us...i was half expecting to hear a story of how you pushed and he turned over quads. the "i know this guy" part is very important. i am curious what you would have done had you not known him?

also, is 8.5x BB common and does it always get 5 callers?

Re: Commerce 20-40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What would you have done had he just called? I think he played his hand really horribly.

[/ QUOTE ]

you know honestly, even if he would of just called i would have tried to get to showdown without putting in another dime.

i mean what possible hands can he be colding calling with?
i know this guy and if he had a naked five he would have led the flop trying to break AK.
and after a bet and raise i don't think he's coming with 3-4, so he must have a boat, and mine is the worst boat possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. I can buy you not raising, definitely. But there will then be $8k in the pot. Tough decision when he bets $5k on the river. Not saying you couldn't find a laywdown, just that it's much tougher - and you definitely will at least give him $1200 more on the turn.

My point wrt him was that if he thinks you are going to push w/ 22 and the other guy has AA, his move makes no sense. I feel like his line was the one which made it easiest for you to get away from your hand. Whereas if he really thinks you have 22 and will play it strong or the other guy has AA (and all the money will get in anyway), I don't see any reason for his raise.

Re: Commerce 20-40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
My point wrt him was that if he thinks you are going to push w/ 22 and the other guy has AA, his move makes no sense. I feel like his line was the one which made it easiest for you to get away from your hand. Whereas if he really thinks you have 22 and will play it strong or the other guy has AA (and all the money will get in anyway), I don't see any reason for his raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

good point.
my only thought would be, he plays with me alot, knows i'm a good player, and probably thinks that it will look very suspect if he smooth calls.

however i agree that a stop and go probably would have worked the best.

but before i chastize him too much, i think its very hard to play quads.

Re: Commerce 20-40NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
great read. thanks for teasing all of us...i was half expecting to hear a story of how you pushed and he turned over quads. the "i know this guy" part is very important. i am curious what you would have done had you not known him?

also, is 8.5x BB common and does it always get 5 callers?

[/ QUOTE ]

honestly i'm not sure what i do if i don't know him.
but i'll say this, i had the worst possible boat so i'm not looking to play a big pot when i bet there's a raise and then a reraise in front of me...

and yes 8.5xBB is a common raise in that game.
its a great game. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]