Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

Last night I was playing at a local charity event (Rockford Charity Games, for the locals), in which a situation arose where everyone folded around to me when I was in the small blind. Before looking at my hole cards, I offered a chop to Bob (for the sake of the story, I'm calling him Bob). Bob said "No, lets play it out," so I look at my hole cards, and muck the garbage I held, and slid the chips over to Bob (in hindsight, I think he was looking for me to get in). The next time the blinds hit us, same situation happens, I again muck the cards because I figure he doesn't want to chop, and slide the chips to him. I didn't even bother asking, because of his actions from the previous round.

As time passes, a new player sits down at the table between Bob and I. A few orbits pass after the new player sat down, and I found myself one before the button. Everyone folds to me, I fold, button folds, and it's up to Bob and the big blind. Bob goes, "You want to chop?," and big blind is more than happy to do so.

Here lies my problem.

Is this proper? I've played in a few B&M settings, and have only played a few times where anyone ever brought up a chop. As I understood the chop 'rule' is that if the table agrees to it, then it should be followed all the time, even if one of the players is holding AA. Or is the chop rule based upon the people you are sitting next to?

I didn't say anything out loud, and I mumbled something under my breath about his action, and was thinking "WTF? you're an a-hole," as I glared at him.

Should I have been mad about this, and spoke up about it? Or am I in the wrong? If I am wrong, what is the proper way to handle a chopping situation.

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

From what I understand, it's not table specific, it's player specific. If you are the type of player that chops, you should always chop, if you're not, you should never chop. That's my understanding of the etiquette.

Now, I have a related question, I was playing at the Taj in AC yesterday, second time I played live and at some point, it was folded to the button who seemed to be a regular there and she bet. Then she noticed it was just her and the blinds, so she started apoligizing to them saying she never did that and was so sorry she didn't notice only the blinds were left.

She said she shouldn't have bet so as not to take their edges. I had no clue what she meant. I mean I understand that if there's no flop there is no rake, but how is that a edge for the blinds?

On a related not, the previous day, my first time playing live, it was folded to me on the button, I raised to steal the blinds, the both folded and I didn't notice anybody getting upset, but if I understand what this regular meant, I probably pissed off a few people by doing that?

Do you agree, is stealing the blinds not worth it in a casino, is that some kind of breach of etiquette?

Thanks in advance for your feedback and sorry to the OP for kinda hijacking his thread.

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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Before looking at my hole cards, I offered a chop to Bob (for the sake of the story, I'm calling him Bob). Bob said "No, lets play it out,"

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At this point I would say, "So you are saying that you never chop?"

If he says "No," I would say "Fine."

If he says "It depends," I would say "O.K., so you're saying that you never chop--that's cool with me."--and then watch him squirm while he begins to comprehend your glare.

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

There is nothing wrong with stealing the blinds when on the button--even though some players won't raise from the button if it's a game where the two players to his/her left are chopping blinds.

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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There is nothing wrong with stealing the blinds when on the button--even though some players won't raise from the button if it's a game where the two players to his/her left are chopping blinds.

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They won't raise or they won't play at all as to permit the chop? And why would they do that, does it really give anybody an edge?

Thanks!

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

I had a situation once where I was the SB and I held KK, it was folded to me and the BB asked If i wanted to chop. I said no and I raised. This really upset the BB who called me a greedy Son of A B*** and he would teach me a lesson.
He 3 bet and I capped.

To make a long story short I flopped 3 K's and he flopped 2 pair. We got into a raisng war and I dragged down a $300 pot.

About an hour later he got a seat change and the same situation came up again and I was dealt something like 94o and I asked if the BB wanted to chop, he said ok and sure enough I was glared at and called a couple of names by the other player who I was in a blind war with earlier.

I"m there to play poker and take people's money, not make friends. If I have a premium hand why would I fold? And on the other hand If i had a garbage hand and could chop why wouldn't I jump at the opportunity not to?

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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As I understood the chop 'rule' is that if the table agrees to it, then it should be followed all the time

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it is up to you and your 'neighbors'

when i sit down, the first thing i do is tell the people next to me that i don't chop. sometimes i am the only player not chopping, but i don't give a rat's ass. i think i can outplay my opponents post-flop in the games i play. therefore, in my mind, the rake is being paid by them.

chopping is all about saving rake, but if you think you have the advantage at your table, then chopping is EV-.

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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chopping is all about saving rake, but if you think you have the advantage at your table, then chopping is EV-.


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Hey Granny

Isn't chopping by definition EV neutral, regardless of any advantage you may have?

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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I didn't say anything out loud, and I mumbled something under my breath about his action, and was thinking "WTF? you're an a-hole," as I glared at him.



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at a charity event?? this seems like a complete waste of your time and energy

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

Because you make more money from a table full of happy fish, joyfully splashing around then you will ever save/earn for making moves on the blinds. If you want to be an ass, go back to the Internet, don't tap the aquarium in a tightass attempt to gain a few bets.

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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I didn't say anything out loud, and I mumbled something under my breath about his action, and was thinking "WTF? you're an a-hole," as I glared at him.



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at a charity event?? this seems like a complete waste of your time and energy

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the players there aren't too difficult. the rake goes towards the charity, you keep what you win.

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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chopping is all about saving rake, but if you think you have the advantage at your table, then chopping is EV-.


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Hey Granny

Isn't chopping by definition EV neutral, regardless of any advantage you may have?

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i smell a trap.

Granny passes.

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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i smell a trap.

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I'd point out folding AA UTG is EV neutral as well...

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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Here lies my problem.

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Poor table selection? Seriously, two chops in two orbits is too many.

(If you were playing high limit, I take this back.)

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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Here lies my problem.

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Poor table selection? Seriously, two chops in two orbits is too many.

(If you were playing high limit, I take this back.)

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meh, 5/10 only. and there were only 2 tables running 5/10 all night (we had to play orbits short-handed). From what I heard from other players, they had to elminate their 10/20 game.

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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I had a situation once where I was the SB and I held KK, it was folded to me and the BB asked If i wanted to chop. I said no and I raised. This really upset the BB who called me a greedy Son of A B*** and he would teach me a lesson.


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There is nothing wrong with this--unless you had chopped previously or stated previously that you do chop--in which case you would now be a doucebag.

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

I don't understand the action here. One hand you're in SB and villain is in BB. A player then sits between you two. In the next hand villain is in the SB, and the new player is the BB and they chop.

I'm not saying this is fabricated (because it's obviously not), but please clarify this.

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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I don't understand the action here. One hand you're in SB and villain is in BB. A player then sits between you two. In the next hand villain is in the SB, and the new player is the BB and they chop.

I'm not saying this is fabricated (because it's obviously not), but please clarify this.

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You're correct here. This happened a few orbits later, though. The player that sat between the villain and I was on the button, thus putting the villain in the SB.

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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I didn't say anything out loud, and I mumbled something under my breath about his action, and was thinking "WTF? you're an a-hole," as I glared at him.



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at a charity event?? this seems like a complete waste of your time and energy

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the players there aren't too difficult. the rake goes towards the charity, you keep what you win.

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Yeah its a good thing you're chopping, that damn charity would get all your money. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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I had a situation once where I was the SB and I held KK, it was folded to me and the BB asked If i wanted to chop. I said no and I raised. This really upset the BB who called me a greedy Son of A B*** and he would teach me a lesson.
He 3 bet and I capped.

To make a long story short I flopped 3 K's and he flopped 2 pair. We got into a raisng war and I dragged down a $300 pot.

About an hour later he got a seat change and the same situation came up again and I was dealt something like 94o and I asked if the BB wanted to chop, he said ok and sure enough I was glared at and called a couple of names by the other player who I was in a blind war with earlier.



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You were in the wrong.

You either chop 100% of the time or you play 100% of the time. You don't cherrypick the situation AFTER looking at your cards and seeing that you have KK or 94o.

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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when i sit down, the first thing i do is tell the people next to me that i don't chop.

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I really don't think this is neccesary and could really only upset people. You probably only have to say this when the situation happens.

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

tinga,

i've been to the rockford games a few times (i'm in buffalo grove)

i remember one of my first live games that wasn't just with friends, a 6-12 home raked game, folded to SB who offers me a chop, i look down at QQ and am like "uhhh do i have to?" at which point it was explained that it's pretty customary, so i agreed -- in a casino i'd probably be less likely to because it's more war less friendly

btw, what do you think of the rockford games? i used to go there all the time before i was big on online poker, played 2-5 and most recently did a few SNGs -- the games seem pretty donkified and the SNG players are almost all far dumber than party skin players, often completely clueless

i think they got rid of the 10-20 game because the maximum bet by law is $10 (they manage to get around this in the NL game by treating it as a tournament, which is probably an illegal "workaround")

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

I have always been of the mind that either you chop 100% of the time or you never chop. To each their own, I guess. I don't look at my hole cards until it's my turn to act, so I offer to chop if folded to me in the SB. As long as a player is consistent, I have no problem. Cherry picking, while not illegal etc. I do feel that it is bad form. JMO.

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

Why was I in the wrong?

There are no "rules" about chopping.

Why would I chop a premium hand where I could make some money? why would I want to lose 1/2 BB on a crap hand if I don't have to?

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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Cherry picking, while not illegal etc. I do feel that it is bad form

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It may be bad form but it is +Ev

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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They won't raise or they won't play at all as to permit the chop? And why would they do that, does it really give anybody an edge?

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Yes. It gives an edge to the blinds, at the expense of the button.

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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Cherry picking, while not illegal etc. I do feel that it is bad form

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It may be bad form but it is +Ev

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Aside from the non-quantifiable disadvantage of going through life as a douchebag, is it really going to be +EV to piss off a BB who will always act after you? If you pulled that crap on me, I would never offer to chop after that, although I might decide to chop if you asked and I had a crappy hand. The fact that you will always be OOP and forced to act first has to make selective chopping for you a -EV play.

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

There isn't any rules about chopping.

I just wanted to point out that this isn't always true. Some of the cardrooms near my home in Seattle do have rules about chopping (i.e. if you chop during a session you are obligated to chop for the rest of that session; if you don't chop then you have to play it out each time). Of course it will only be enforced if someone calls for the floor which probably won't happen.

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

No it is not. It is -EV and if you can't figure it out, you need to work on your overall understanding of poker and you might be an ass.

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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You're correct here. This happened a few orbits later, though. The player that sat between the villain and I was on the button, thus putting the villain in the SB.

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If there is a player between you, the villian has to be in the Big Blind when you are on the button.

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

Unless the player just sat down and had to sit out until the button passes. Then the villian could be in the small blind when you are on the button.

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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chopping is all about saving rake, but if you think you have the advantage at your table, then chopping is EV-.


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Hey Granny

Isn't chopping by definition EV neutral, regardless of any advantage you may have?

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this is a pretty weak question. while i agree with grannys logic here(woah). i usually always chop if my neighbor wants to. however, chopping is not ev neutral in terms of expectation. if i am the small blind and the big blind is a weak player, i should probably be raising MOST of my holdings and outplaying them postflop, which is more +ev than just chopping the blinds. i guess its related to the economic concept of opportunity cost.

rj

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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I had a situation once where I was the SB and I held KK, it was folded to me and the BB asked If i wanted to chop. I said no and I raised. This really upset the BB who called me a greedy Son of A B*** and he would teach me a lesson.
He 3 bet and I capped.

To make a long story short I flopped 3 K's and he flopped 2 pair. We got into a raisng war and I dragged down a $300 pot.

About an hour later he got a seat change and the same situation came up again and I was dealt something like 94o and I asked if the BB wanted to chop, he said ok and sure enough I was glared at and called a couple of names by the other player who I was in a blind war with earlier.

I"m there to play poker and take people's money, not make friends. If I have a premium hand why would I fold? And on the other hand If i had a garbage hand and could chop why wouldn't I jump at the opportunity not to?

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bs. chop always or never chop. boooo to you.

rj

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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Why was I in the wrong?

There are no "rules" about chopping.

Why would I chop a premium hand where I could make some money? why would I want to lose 1/2 BB on a crap hand if I don't have to?

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No, it's not against the rules, but it is angle shooting. You're a jerk.

-Mike

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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if i am the small blind and the big blind is a weak player, i should probably be raising MOST of my holdings and outplaying them postflop, which is more +ev than just chopping the blinds

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You are going to outplay them enough to overcome being out of position and the rake?

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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if i am the small blind and the big blind is a weak player, i should probably be raising MOST of my holdings and outplaying them postflop, which is more +ev than just chopping the blinds

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You are going to outplay them enough to overcome being out of position and the rake?

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i imagine i could. im just giving the only possible justification i can think of for why not chopping would be +ev. as i said, however, i always chop, so i BARELY buy my explanation. and you still have to pay 1/2 rake at bay101 when you chop anyways.

rj

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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Why was I in the wrong?

There are no "rules" about chopping.

Why would I chop a premium hand where I could make some money? why would I want to lose 1/2 BB on a crap hand if I don't have to?

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In all of the time I've been playing live, I've never seen someone selectively chop. I've only even seen a handful of players who refused to chop, though they were consistent about it. You must be the biggest a**hole ever. Congratulations.

After the rake, and tip (I'm assuming you tip, but since it's not in the rules, and it's -EV, i guess you don't), the +EV of not chopping doesn't nearly come close to the +EV of not appearing like a douchebag to everyone else at the poker room you play at, having them hate you, and try harder to take your money.

Other than that, I think you're chopping strategy is brilliant.

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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and was thinking "WTF? you're an a-hole," as I glared at him.


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Funny, just last night some old dude who had been chopping with his neighbor to the right raised my BB out of the SB when folded to him, and I actually SAID....WTF, you're an as.shole

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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Last night I was playing at a local charity event (Rockford Charity Games, for the locals), in which a situation arose where everyone folded around to me when I was in the small blind. Before looking at my hole cards, I offered a chop to Bob (for the sake of the story, I'm calling him Bob). Bob said "No, lets play it out," so I look at my hole cards, and muck the garbage I held, and slid the chips over to Bob (in hindsight, I think he was looking for me to get in). The next time the blinds hit us, same situation happens, I again muck the cards because I figure he doesn't want to chop, and slide the chips to him. I didn't even bother asking, because of his actions from the previous round.

As time passes, a new player sits down at the table between Bob and I. A few orbits pass after the new player sat down, and I found myself one before the button. Everyone folds to me, I fold, button folds, and it's up to Bob and the big blind. Bob goes, "You want to chop?," and big blind is more than happy to do so.

Here lies my problem.

Is this proper? I've played in a few B&M settings, and have only played a few times where anyone ever brought up a chop. As I understood the chop 'rule' is that if the table agrees to it, then it should be followed all the time, even if one of the players is holding AA. Or is the chop rule based upon the people you are sitting next to?

I didn't say anything out loud, and I mumbled something under my breath about his action, and was thinking "WTF? you're an a-hole," as I glared at him.

Should I have been mad about this, and spoke up about it? Or am I in the wrong? If I am wrong, what is the proper way to handle a chopping situation.

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This happend to me at Canterbury 4/8 once. So everytime it was folded to me in the sb I would raise his BB. He folded everytime. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I also sucked out on him a couple of times on the river. woot! Karma is a bitch.

Re: Concept of Chopping Blinds
 

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btw, what do you think of the rockford games? i used to go there all the time before i was big on online poker, played 2-5 and most recently did a few SNGs -- the games seem pretty donkified and the SNG players are almost all far dumber than party skin players, often completely clueless


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The games aren't too difficult, imo. The 5/10 wasn't too terrible (first time I had played the level at RCG), kind of soft, and we had the occasional donk sit down at the table. I sat down at the 2/5 table before I moved to the 5/10 (as I was waiting for a game), I didn't see too many hands at the 2/5 table, and saw this happen: capped preflop with 6 (maybe 7) to the flop. The winning hand ended up being Ten/Deuce of hearts (as the kid proclaims "Thank you Doyle," and kisses his cards). Everyone else flipped over garbage, excpet for the one holding KK who took a hard beat. I was in the BB next hand, and I go "don't even bother, I'm outta here."

I haven't given the SNG's a shot, as I heard they're crapshoots (with the ridiculous blind structure) and their terrible players. I guess that's what you'd ultimately want at the table, but then those are the people you are getting pissed at in the end.