UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

Just got back from Vegas, playing mostly at the Imperial Palace due to the comps. The following came up in the $100 max $1/$2 No Limit game.

It's down to heads up action after the flop; action between Player 1 and Player 2. River card brings a third diamond for a potential flush. Player 1 is first to act on fifth street and instantly pushes all in. Player 2 calls time, and says to Player 1 "you like your flush, eh?" Player 2 then declares he "IS NOT MUCKING." Player 2 proceeds to expose his hole cards to Player 1...Player 2 has a baby flush and is worried about a higher flush. After seeing Player 2's flush, and BEFORE Player 2 calls the all in bet, Player 1 exposes his hole cards and shows top two pair. Seeing Player 1's hole cards, Player 2 instantly calls and claims the pot is his with the flush.

Player 1 jumps up and screams for the floor. Player 1 argues emphatically that Player 2's hand is dead because he exposed his cards. Player 1 argues the hand is live and that exposing cards is perfectly fine, heads up, in non-tournament play.

I'll tell you how the floor ruled, following a few friendly comments. Since I think this is one of the best live poker moves I've seen, I think you can venture a wager as to how the floor ruled!

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

Both hands are live, push the pot to the flush.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

When a few of us play, although clearly not in a true B&M setting, we use "flipping for reaction all the time" where the player who is potentially calling an all-in flips over his hand to see for a reaction. We've once had a player turn over his hand even though the potentiall caller clearly stated he was not mucking, and we allowed the player who flipped for a reaction to take down the pot seeing that he had won.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

almost every room out there allows you to expose your cards if it's heads up in a cash game, as the action doesn't affect any third party. However, be careful, I have played in a few rooms who don't make a distinction between cash game rules and tourney rules.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
the hand is live and that exposing cards is perfectly fine, heads up, in non-tournament play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

i really hate people doing this....i've never played nl in a B&M but I think if I push, everytime i'll just get up from the table and move away till he decides what to do.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

For what it's worth, I think this is angle-shooting of the worst kind which is very much against the spirit and the etiquette of the game. Some may disagree, but I think that this kind of "great move" should generally be discouraged. For that reason, I actually wish most places would declare intentionally exposed hands dead just to keep people from pulling annoying stuff like this.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

Interesting in that the one and only time I played at Imperial Palace some guy did this exact same thing to me.

However, a 3rd player was in. The board read A-7-6-8. The action on the turn went bet, raise all in by the guy on my right, reraise all in by me. The guy who bet first agonized for a while, then flipped over his A7 while continuing to stare me down. I asked, "are you mucking??" and then he immediately called.

I had A8 so it was all good, but should the dealer have killed his hand?

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

in my experience, the people who do this are generally table captain type douche bags. nothing bothers me more than the arrogant poker player that knows he is so much better than everybody else at the table that he has to constantly do flamboyantly gay moves like this. this same guy thinks for entirely too long about very obvious moves, stacks his chips for a preflop raise and then calls, tells everybody after a hand that he KNEW that guy had that hand, and consistently talks about online poker. he is a virus.

-Jihad

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
in my experience, the people who do this are generally table captain type douche bags. nothing bothers me more than the arrogant poker player that knows he is so much better than everybody else at the table that he has to constantly do flamboyantly gay moves like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen.

Playing last night, the floor should have pulled up a chair at the NL table next to ours because three table captains were constantly harrassing the dealer, debating the legality of certain bets and calls and calling winners then complaining when the dealer actually took time to verify the hands and didn't immediately shove the pot in their direction.

If you have to resort to gimmicks and other BS to take down a pot, you aren't much of a poker player.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

I agree that this kind of move is BS. But, I actually like these types of players. They're usually not too good at poker and have to resort to this type of stuff to win. It sounds kind of harsh, but when you sit down in a casino you've got to be aware of this kind of garbage.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

Sorry, but considerning the title you gave this thread and the fact that my sarcasm meter is broken, I am a bit unclear as to what tone to apply in my response.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

It all depends on the house rules. They are the ultimate say on what is allowed in the game.

btw - Player 1 is a bonehead for showing his hand at all. If player 2's hand was considered dead, then player 1's hand is dead as well because the action has not yet been completed by player 2.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

Paging Dr. Al Capone Junior, Paging Dr. Al Capone Junior:
Kick this angle shooting D'bag in the NUTS, STAT!!!

Unfortunately, I'm betting angle shooter had the ruling go in his favor, and player 1, not knowing any better, probably lost the pot.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

yea dude, angleshooting is so cool.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

To answer Breakfast Burritos question, it is my understanding that if the 3rd player is still in the hand then the guy who exposed the hand, his hand is dead. What happened on the rest of the hand?

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

Mike Caro wrote about using this move in order to elicit a tell from his opponent.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
The action on the turn went bet, raise all in by the guy on my right, reraise all in by me. The guy who bet first agonized for a while, then flipped over his A7 while continuing to stare me down. I asked, "are you mucking??" and then he immediately called.

I had A8 so it was all good, but should the dealer have killed his hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

I don't think i mind this at all.

Also, Doyle indicates that he would do this in a certain situation when he has aces and someone moves in on him on the flop or after to see if he can get a reaction out of the guy in Super System.

If the rules change then it's no good, but this guy is playing within the rules.

Also, player 1 is an idiot if player 2 clearly stated that he is not mucking.

-WT

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just got back from Vegas, playing mostly at the Imperial Palace due to the comps. The following came up in the $100 max $1/$2 No Limit game.

It's down to heads up action after the flop; action between Player 1 and Player 2. River card brings a third diamond for a potential flush. Player 1 is first to act on fifth street and instantly pushes all in. Player 2 calls time, and says to Player 1 "you like your flush, eh?" Player 2 then declares he "IS NOT MUCKING." Player 2 proceeds to expose his hole cards to Player 1...Player 2 has a baby flush and is worried about a higher flush. After seeing Player 2's flush, and BEFORE Player 2 calls the all in bet, Player 1 exposes his hole cards and shows top two pair. Seeing Player 1's hole cards, Player 2 instantly calls and claims the pot is his with the flush.

Player 1 jumps up and screams for the floor. Player 1 argues emphatically that Player 2's hand is dead because he exposed his cards. Player 1 argues the hand is live and that exposing cards is perfectly fine, heads up, in non-tournament play.

I'll tell you how the floor ruled, following a few friendly comments. Since I think this is one of the best live poker moves I've seen, I think you can venture a wager as to how the floor ruled!

[/ QUOTE ]

here is why it is NOT the best poker move ever. on a fairly easy call, the guy sits around and makes an ass out of himself instead of just making the easy [censored] call. hey, lets think poker first, angle shooting second...or last...

rj

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
For what it's worth, I think this is angle-shooting of the worst kind which is very much against the spirit and the etiquette of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely.

It's not even a good move. It's just a cheap tactic.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

I too have never really understood why this is not simply banned outright. Seems about the same ethical level as a string raise to me (which as we know is hammered into every newbie's head as a no-no), and would be just as easy to define as a rule and enforce.

The fact that some pros consider it perfectly fine also confuses me. Unless they are hearkening back to the old saloon poker days and don't really object to any type of angle shooting at all.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
For what it's worth, I think this is angle-shooting of the worst kind which is very much against the spirit and the etiquette of the game. Some may disagree, but I think that this kind of "great move" should generally be discouraged. For that reason, I actually wish most places would declare intentionally exposed hands dead just to keep people from pulling annoying stuff like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

like he said angle shoot at the worst, lucky that he had a retarded oppenent at it best.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Btw - Player 1 is a bonehead for showing his hand at all. If player 2's hand was considered dead, then player 1's hand is dead as well because the action has not yet been completed by player 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

NO LOL

If players 2 hand is dead then is action is over!!! ur post is an oxymoron [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] they both cant be dead!!!

BTW the hands live and pot to player 2... but hes still a [censored].

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
To answer Breakfast Burritos question, it is my understanding that if the 3rd player is still in the hand then the guy who exposed the hand, his hand is dead. What happened on the rest of the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

The other all in guy had AQ, the river bricked and I took it all down. No one made any comments about turning the cards face up before announcing his play, and since the other guy was all in, it didn't really make a difference, but I wasn't sure if this was legal from a rules perspective.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

perfectly legal move, floor should rule in player 2's favor , at the very least the hand is not dead , player 2 wins the pot minus the all in if we want to give player 1 slack. Player 1 is a dumbass.
If player 1 won the hand he would argue that "his hand is live and he is forced to call"

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is one of the best live poker moves I've seen

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it sucks. He can't win by playing well, so he tries to win by tricking his opponent in to breaking the rules. What a scumbag.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this is one of the best live poker moves I've seen

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it sucks. He can't win by playing well, so he tries to win by tricking his opponent in to breaking the rules. What a scumbag.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mich will we ever here the results...

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll tell you how the floor ruled, following a few friendly comments. Since I think this is one of the best live poker moves I've seen

[/ QUOTE ]

Aside from the fact that it's an angle shoot, I don't love the move. What does Player 2 (small flush) do when Player 1 doesn't expose his losing hand, and calmly asks whether Player 2 is calling or folding.

Against a player who can hide his emotions (I believe this called a 'poker face' [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]) I think that Player 2 will fold a winning hand more frequently than he'll get a free ride on the bet.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

Grunching.

My guess is that the hand was over and the player with the flush had his hand ruled dead because he turned over his cards before he called the bet.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

Brunson talks about making this move in the nl section of S/S I, as well.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

Seems like I just read this same thing in the home poker forum earlier this week. We've long banned this behavior at our weekly games. It's the sort of thing that people who think my basement apartment is the final table of the wsop would continue to do every 4th or fifth hand. When you see it more than once in a session, you get really tired of it.

House Rule 19 - If you expose your cards during a hand, you have to play the next 5 hands all face up, dumbass.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

I haven't read the other posts yet, so maybe I am just repeating, but I think:

1) Player 2 is a jackass for pulling this kind of cheap tactic, which, in my opinion, is bad etiquette and discourages people from going to casinos to play live games.

2) The floor ruled in Player 2's favor anyway, because technically he did nothing against the rules in most casinos. Especially because he clearly stated that he was not mucking his hand, it is Player 1's own fault for exposing his cards. In cash games at most casinos, exposed hands are not automatically dead, and therefore player 2 can still act after exposing his cards.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!!
 

For the title of this post to be accurate......player 1 must have known that this particular cardroom had some weird technicality rule in this type of situation that would force player 2 to muck.

If player 1 didnt win this hand I dont see how this is a great move at all.

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!! I am confused?
 

[ QUOTE ]



then declares he "IS NOT MUCKING."

[/ QUOTE ]



I have only played at a B&M site maybe a half a dozen times but would have thought a declaration that "I AM NOT MUCKING" would have to mean I am calling and be a binding verbal declaration.

Could some explain why it is not?

Re: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Best Live Poker Move EVER!! I am confused?
 

player just means that when he turns over his cards this is not a muck....yet.
he just wasn't completely clear.


it's a stupid angle-shoot and kind of a stupid thread too.