Ethics of a hidden cam in an non-sanctioned game
 

I live in Texas and the powers that be ensure that the long arm of the law shall not authorise any cash games. That being the case, all games are underground.

If one could mount a hidden video camera to oneself (or even simply audio) to record the action in a session-for the purpose of putting to memory all the action at that session (a la pokertracker)-would such an action be unethical?

Does the question hinge on disclosure or is that irrelevant?

I'm not concerned with whether such an action would be advisable re: getting caught or any technical issues. Just simply is it in accordance with proper play of the game? Or would it be akin to cheating?

Re: Ethics of a hidden cam in an non-sanctioned game
 

[ QUOTE ]
If one could mount a hidden video camera to oneself (or even simply audio) to record the action in a session-for the purpose of putting to memory all the action at that session (a la pokertracker)-would such an action be unethical?

[/ QUOTE ]

Very unethical, do not do it, stop thinking about it, and it would not be that helpful anyway. Instead of cheating learn to play.

Re: Ethics of a hidden cam in an non-sanctioned game
 

[ QUOTE ]
If one could mount a hidden video camera to oneself....

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a recipe for a good asss-kicking in an underground room if you get caught.

Re: Ethics of a hidden cam in an non-sanctioned game
 

Yes. An "ass kicking" would likely be in order if one were caught.

I think there would be little discussion on that point.

I'm simply interested in people's thoughts on the prinicple at work. Is it substantively different than using an on-line hand database? Is it substantively different than taking a note pad to the game and writing down all the action in short hand?

Re: Ethics of a hidden cam in an non-sanctioned game
 

Based on what I know about Underground Games, which comes mainly from watching Rounders, I'd agree an ass-kicking might result from getting caught taking movie pictures.

Re: Ethics of a hidden cam in an non-sanctioned game
 

Your head is in the right place but once you think it through I'm sure you'll think better of this ill-concieved notion.

As to you addenda to this OP-I frankly will likely never need/feel the need to play in these types of underground games but I personally would simply try to keep notes in my head as opposed to do anything (record audio/video/take notes) which may give someone the wrong impression as to my intentions as though the chance of getting caught may be small-the price you may pay could be not worth it.

Re: Ethics of a hidden cam in an non-sanctioned game
 

Yes, it is very different than using an online hand tracker. Not in its intention, obviously, but in how it will be perceived. Is walking into a playground with a baseball bat with the intention of protecting children any different than protecting a friend from a bully (excuse the poor analogy, but I hope you see my point)? Maybe not in intention, but certainly in perception.

The rule of thumb is... if you have to hide it, it shouldn't be there.

Re: Ethics of a hidden cam in an non-sanctioned game
 

I would simply rely on note taking. Bring 3 x 5s and make more-frequent-than-usual bathroom runs. I suspect notes at the table in an underground joint would arouse unwelcome notice.

Granted this may make it tough to record all of the action as you specify. How about devoting one session each to a single player you will play against regularly? Over four or five hours, much of it spent waiting for the next hand after folding, you should be able to put together a decent "book" on a person. Might take more time than getting an entire session recorded, but the longer term effort could give you very specific insights against your more frequent competitors.

I think this is more ethical than recording folks surreptitiously. For me it stems from what I would want to have happen to me. I wouldn't mind a person taking notes on my play -- hell, nice to have a student of the game in the room -- but I would be very upset to learn that I'd been video- or audiotaped.

Re: Ethics of a hidden cam in an non-sanctioned game
 

I think recording people without their knowledge and consent is unethical.

Also, from the practical standpoint, if you get caught taping people engaged in an illegal activity, they will probably think you are a cop or an informer. The best thing that could happen is that you get thrown out of the game. The worst might involve cement overshoes.

Re: Ethics of a hidden cam in an non-sanctioned game
 

Besides the other good reasons that have been stated, there is the possibility that the police somehow get your tapes. Im sure you wouldn't rat out the other players, but what if your local PD decides to make some raids like the ones in NY? What if they found out about them some other way and got a warrant? You could inadvertantly give the DA his best evidence.

Re: Ethics of a hidden cam in an non-sanctioned game
 

I have to echo what others have said - secretly audio or video taping in an underground club is risking your life. Don't even think about it.

Re: Ethics of a hidden cam in an non-sanctioned game
 

Definitely a terrible idea not just in the fact that you could get your ass kicked but also because I can't imagine it would really be worth the risk/time to record whatever low-limit action you're trying to commit to memory.

Re: Ethics of a hidden cam in an non-sanctioned game
 

I live in Texas too. People that play in underground rooms here tend to legally carry concealed weapons. Don't tape them.

The question is purely theoretical
 

The thrust of my question is entirely theoretical (mayhaps I should have posted in the "poker theory" forum).

It is an issue of what is "ethical" at the table. Is maintaing a device that electronically records the action ethical? Does disclosure of the device make it ethical? If the device is just a simple paper and pencil, does that change its status?

I have no intention of doing any of these things. A friend asked me about what I thought of the idea (in theory) and I found it to be a thought provoking question (espically in light of programs like poker tracker).

Re: The question is purely theoretical
 

It is an issue of what is "ethical" at the table. Is maintaing a device that electronically records the action ethical? Does disclosure of the device make it ethical? If the device is just a simple paper and pencil, does that change its status?

I have no intention of doing any of these things. A friend asked me about what I thought of the idea (in theory) and I found it to be a thought provoking question (espically in light of programs like poker tracker).

It is unethical, and it is completely different than PokerTracker.

Online, people have control over the exact amount of information that they give you. Pokertracker records their PLAY. Video cameras record their PERSON.

Recording an unknowing person via any media where they would be recognizable is completely unethical and unacceptable. Videotaping me , Amanda, is completely different from recording the play of me, JayhawkFan88 at playgootpoker.com. If you get permission, obviously, you are fine. If you are only taking notes with pen and paper, you don't, imo, even need permission--unless you take that person's picture and put it next to your notes. (Although if we were dealing with the real world, one might wish to get permission, to avoid running afoul of the concealed weapons mentioned earlier.)

Especially since we are talking about an environment where every user understands (or should) that there will be electronic records kept of every hand dealt to every player at all times, I don't think PokerTracker is problematic from an ethical standpoint.

Some of the other software programs are qualitatively different from PT and are, imo, a little more ethically questionable, but I don't wish to start a debate on those here.

Re: The question is purely theoretical
 

In many states, it is illegal to record audio of a person without their knowledge and consent.

Re: Ethics of a hidden cam in an non-sanctioned game
 

[ QUOTE ]
I live in Texas too. People that play in underground rooms here tend to legally carry concealed weapons. Don't tape them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Best reason to not tape them.

Re: Ethics of a hidden cam in an non-sanctioned game
 

[ QUOTE ]
I live in Texas and the powers that be ensure that the long arm of the law shall not authorise any cash games. That being the case, all games are underground.

If one could mount a hidden video camera to oneself (or even simply audio) to record the action in a session-for the purpose of putting to memory all the action at that session (a la pokertracker)-would such an action be unethical?

Does the question hinge on disclosure or is that irrelevant?

I'm not concerned with whether such an action would be advisable re: getting caught or any technical issues. Just simply is it in accordance with proper play of the game? Or would it be akin to cheating?

[/ QUOTE ]

Home cash games are legal in Texas. It only becomes illegal if there's a rake or sitting fee.

So you could have a table of people playing and it would be perfectly legal. But if you, as host, draw a rake out of the pot it's illegal.

Re: Ethics of a hidden cam in an non-sanctioned game
 

Well, when the cops find your bloody beaten body in the dumpster out back, maybe you can ask them. Or maybe you'll finally realize how unethical and repulsive this idea is after you get the living **** kicked out of you, which would be exactly what you deserve if you do this.

al