Flop decision w/ ATs
 

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

BB is extremely loose, and somewhat aggressive.

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, BB calls.

I honestly expected more players to come.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero ??

Re: Flop decision w/ ATs
 

I'd raise, call a 3-bet, and fold the turn UI. I'd also be somewhat inclined to cap this flop and then fold if he leads the turn, that would at least let me sleep better at night knowing that I folded a losing hand instead of got pushed off a winning hand.

Re: Flop decision w/ ATs
 

Fold. Pick a better flop to make a stand if you feel like you need to.

Re: Flop decision w/ ATs
 

this is a read dependent, raise or fold situation. absent reads I muck.

Re: Flop decision w/ ATs
 

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I'd also be somewhat inclined to cap this flop and then fold if he leads the turn, that would at least let me sleep better at night knowing that I folded a losing hand instead of got pushed off a winning hand.

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Re: Flop decision w/ ATs
 

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I'd also be somewhat inclined to cap this flop and then fold if he leads the turn, that would at least let me sleep better at night knowing that I folded a losing hand instead of got pushed off a winning hand.

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It's not something I would do often, only against an overly aggressive LAG. Might get a little more action out of him on future hands if he thinks he's going to push you off of something.

Re: Flop decision w/ ATs
 

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It's not something I would do often, only against an overly aggressive LAG. Might get a little more action out of him on future hands if he thinks he's going to push you off of something.

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ahh, gotcha.. Missed the fact that BB was loose aggressive.

Personally I would probably just call down in that case, raising if I hit.

Re: Flop decision w/ ATs
 

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It's not something I would do often, only against an overly aggressive LAG. Might get a little more action out of him on future hands if he thinks he's going to push you off of something.

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ahh, gotcha.. Missed the fact that BB was loose aggressive.

Personally I would probably just call down in that case, raising if I hit.

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That's the other line I liked, as I'd like to get to a showdown and see what he'll defend with, if he'll lead with overcards, etc. I don't think this flop comes close to about 80% of the hands he's defending the blind with, so I'm surprised to see so many people say it's a fold. Just because it missed us doesn't mean it hit him.

Re: Flop decision w/ ATs
 

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I don't think this flop comes close to about 80% of the hands he's defending the blind with

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I don't think you can narrow the holdings of a loose player down that much. If he's tight maybe.

This is a pretty scary (ie coordinated) flop to be calling down on, in my opinion. (Do you really want to see the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]?) The pot is somewhat small and you don't have odds to draw to a pair so you're basically hoping your A-high hand is good and you don't get outdrawn. I'm not willing to invest the necessary 2.5BB to maybe win the roughly 3BB that are out there in this instance.

If the flop was something like 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], then I'd think about it...

Re: Flop decision w/ ATs
 

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Fold. Pick a better flop to make a stand if you feel like you need to.

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Re: Flop decision w/ ATs
 

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Fold. Pick a better flop to make a stand if you feel like you need to.

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Re: Flop decision w/ ATs
 

Not worth making a stand on such a flop with no clubs and no draws. Fold... Next hand.

Re: Flop decision w/ ATs
 

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Not worth making a stand on such a flop with no clubs and no draws. Fold... Next hand.

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If you were never to play another hand at the table, you should probably fold here. The problem is that you will be playing more hands and that people might see that you laydown to a simple flop bet. At an aggressive table the play would usually be to raise and re-evaluate based on what falls on 4th. Since I would value call with something like A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on this flop, I would probably value call here too.

Brad

Re: Flop decision w/ ATs
 

Definite fold for me here. Flop is too coordinated.

Re: Flop decision w/ ATs
 

My first reaction was to raise. Then I realized that's because I've started playing 6-max, and that's what I would do in a 6-max game. I would raise and see what fell on the turn. "But this is full ring. SB is betting heads up into the pfr. Just fold and fight another day."

But then I remembered that 6-max is still poker, and a big part of it is taking advantage of more marginal situations. Those lessons are to be used in full-ring games as well.

As such, raise. If 3-bet, fold the turn without improvement. If called, see what the turn brings.

Re: Flop decision w/ ATs
 

If he's the extremely loose somewhat aggressive type who likes to take stabs at low card flops when he's heads up against a raise that could be overcards I'd three-bet the flop and see what he does. If he caps I'd call and fold ui on the turn to a bet. If he checks I'd bet on the turn and see if he lays. If he calls I fold the river unimproved to a bet if he leads at it. It's pretty agg. but agg. wins pots heads up. This is considering that villain is said type of player, if he's just loose somewhat agg. but doesn't take stabs just lay to the flop bet. I think this is the difference between donk agg. and selected agg. that can pick up pots.

Re: Flop decision w/ ATs
 

call or fold. raising is pissing your chips away.

Re: Flop decision w/ ATs
 

Fold.

4 Clean outs if hes on flush draw? 6 outs max if hes not.

4:1 Pot odds

Sure he may hold zilch but pot is tiny anyhow.

Re: Flop decision w/ ATs
 

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Fold.

4 Clean outs if hes on flush draw? 6 outs max if hes not.

4:1 Pot odds

Sure he may hold zilch but pot is tiny anyhow.

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uh its 5.5/1

and if BB is on a FD hero is almost always ahead, though BB will have 15outs(unless he has the T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]) you are a favorite if he has a matching club, a slight underdog if he has 2live cards as well

but I think he's betting stuff weaker than a FD here pretty often, so I call and look at the turn

Re: Flop decision w/ ATs
 

I'd call down.

Re: Flop decision w/ ATs
 

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My first reaction was to raise. Then I realized that's because I've started playing 6-max, and that's what I would do in a 6-max game. I would raise and see what fell on the turn. "But this is full ring. SB is betting heads up into the pfr. Just fold and fight another day."

But then I remembered that 6-max is still poker, and a big part of it is taking advantage of more marginal situations. Those lessons are to be used in full-ring games as well.

As such, raise. If 3-bet, fold the turn without improvement. If called, see what the turn brings.

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Why would you want to raise? I'd call this down if he's laggy.

Re: Flop decision w/ ATs
 

Since the BB is a LAG, you're probably going to have to spend 5 SB to win 9.5 SB if you want to call down. The flop is quite coordinated (BB could have anything really), and you've probably only got 4 outs. How could calling down even be remotely correct?

I think a raise is better than calling if you think he's just playing you, but I think folding is the best option.

Re: Flop decision w/ ATs
 

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Why would you want to raise? I'd call this down if he's laggy.

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Because I can check behind on the turn if I want.